Hayagriva: Spinoza. Spinoza says that "The infinite God must possess infinite attributes." He is saying that God, being the basis of all existence, cannot be described in a material way. He is a pantheist in the sense that he believes in the one substance. However, he believes that God has infinite divine attributes, and only two of these attributes fall within the realm of human experience, and these are thought and extension, or mind and matter.

Prabhupada: So, so far God is concerned, and undoubtedly He is unlimited and His qualities are unlimited. So His one of the most important quality is called Bhakta-vatsala. He is very much dear to His devotee, Bhakta-vatsala. So He has unlimited devotees and unlimited dealings with them; therefore He is unlimitedly expanded. That is pantheism. But it does not mean because He is unlimitedly expanded, His personality is lost. He is person always, even though He is unlimitedly expanded. That is the Vedic version: purnasya purnam adaya purnam eva avasisyate [Iso Invocation]. He is complete, and if another complete form expands from Him, still He remains complete. He is not lost. The material conception is if one unit, if something is taken from it, then it becomes less of that thing. But God is so complete that you can go on taking from Him unlimitedly, still He remains unlimited. That is pantheist. I think they are impersonalist.

Hayagriva: Yes. Spinoza is impersonal. He asserts that God cannot be a remote cause of the creation. He says that the creation flows from God in the same way that conclusions flow from principles in mathematics. God is free to create, but He is the eminent cause. That is to say, the creation is an extension of Himself.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is, He creates by His energy. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated,

Hayagriva: Yes.

Prabhupada: So both, He is remote cause and eminent cause.

Hayagriva: Both remote and eminent.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hayagriva: He says that each soul coincides with its body. That is to say, the soul acquires a body befitting it...

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hayagriva: ...a soul acquires a body befitting it. A soul can progress beyond bodies to come to know spiritual truths by turning toward God rather than the material world.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hayagriva: Or, as Spinoza would put it, by turning toward God's extensions. He calls them God's extensions.

Prabhupada: No.

Hayagriva: Because he is pantheistic.

Prabhupada: This is..., expansion also we accept. What is called, there is technical name, pracara (?). Expansion, that is stated in Bhagavatam, maya tatam idam sarvam: "By Me everything is expanded." This very word is used. Maya tatam idam sarvam [Bg. 9.4]. So expansion is also God, but at the same time in expansion there is no God. "No God" means not in person. The expansion is imperson, but expansion is from the person. Just as a government, this is impersonal, but the governor is person. So government means under the control of the governor. So impersonal expansion of God is controlled by the personal God. This is like pantheism. And pantheism, so I think that because everything is God, that God has no personal existence. Is it not?

Hayagriva: Yes. Pantheists would say that God is eminent in everything.

Prabhupada: Everything.

Hayagriva: But has no personal or remote...

Prabhupada: So that is material thought. That is material thought, because the paper in your hand, if it is made into pieces and thrown, expanding, then the original paper is lost. So this is material conception. But the spiritual conception is that He may expand Himself unlimitedly; still, He remains in His own person.

Hayagriva: He believed that as long as man is composed of body and soul, he will be under the mode of passion, and as long as the soul is confined to the body, the living entity will necessarily be attached to the physical world.

Prabhupada: Yes. We call it maya. So that can... The body and soul in the material world is there, and therefore the aim of life is how to separate this soul from material body and remain in his original, spiritual form. That is the whole ideal objective for human life, because as long as he remains attached to the body, and... But he has to change the body. That is our practical experience also. We are changing always the body, one after another, and if we give up our attachment for this body, then we are liberated. That is called mukti, to remain in a spiritual body. That is possible only by always thinking of God. That is meditation. That is actual meditation. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakta, always thinking of Krsna. To become Krsna's devotee, to become worshiper of Krsna, and always offering obeisances: "My Lord, I am Your eternal servant. Kindly keep me engaged in Your service"that much prayer; nothing more. Then he remains always in... [break]

Hayagriva: Continuation of Spinoza. Spinoza considered good and evil to relate only to man. They have no basis in God, who is beyond good and evil.

Prabhupada: Right. But as everything is God, as Spinoza thinks that his... What is his position of bad? What is his conception?

Hayagriva: That God is beyond good and...

Prabhupada: God is beyond, but what is his position of evil? Evil is there, but he said that God has no evil. Then wherefrom the evil comes?

Hayagriva: Seems inconsistent.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hayagriva: He writes...

Prabhupada: We, we say that God... Good and evil, they are also emanation from God. Evil is the back side and good is the front side.

Hayagriva: He writes, "He who knows himself and knows his affections clearly and distinctly, and that with the accompaniment of the idea of God is joyous, for he knows and loves God. Thus through knowledge of the self one can come to know something of God, and in this way man can be happy and love God." But there is no mention here of service.

Prabhupada: Love means service. Just like mother loves the child, she gives, she gives service. The father loves the child, she gives the service, he gives the service. So,

Hayagriva: Spinoza's God is clearly not a personal God. Spinoza is an impersonalist, and his love for God is more intellectual or philosophical than theistic or religious. Being an impersonalist, Spinoza believed in the identity of the individual soul with God. This is not to say that he believed that the individual soul is infinite, but that it is not distinct from God. He writes, "Thus that love of the soul is a part of the infinite love with which God loves Himself." He sees the soul's intellectual love of God and God's love for the individual soul, which is within man, to be one and the same love.

Prabhupada: Love is five kinds of love: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya. The beginning of love is awe and adoration: "Oh, God is so great. God is everything." When he understands God's potency, unlimitedness, the soul adores Him. That adoration is also love. When that adoration is further advanced, then he serves God as master and servant. When the service is more intimate, then friend to friendas one friend renders service to other friend, the other friend renders to other friend, like that, reciprocal. Then further expanded, the love is turned into paternal love, and further expanded it is expanding into conjugal love. So there are different stages of love. So Spinoza is touching only the beginning of love, simply adoring, appreciating God's power, expansion, that much. But when this love of adoration expands, that is called dasya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vatsalya-rasa, madhurya-rasa. So he is on the beginning state of loving God. He has not advanced farther.

Hayagriva: It, it seems that he believes in the Paramatma present within all beings but does not believe in the jiva along with Paramatma. Is this a typical impersonalist position?

Prabhupada: That means he does not know what is love. If God loves the living entity, then He must be well-wisher, friend of the living entity. And because God expands Himself unlimitedly, therefore He lives with the living entity, and living entities are unlimited. That is said in the Bhagavad-gita: isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. In Upanisads also it is confirmed that two birds are sitting on tree; one is eating the fruit and the other is simply witness. So this witnessing bird is God; therefore Paramatma and jivatma live together. And there are many other places-sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto [Bg. 15.15]. He reminds the living entity that "Unless Paramatma is there, I forget everything of my past life." But because I wanted to enjoy something in my past life, God gives him the opportunity and reminds him, "Now you wanted this. Here is the opportunity. You do it." So Paramatma is always with the jiva.

Hayagriva: He does not believe that God has a body because by body, he says, we understand a certain quantity possessing life, breadth and depth, limited by some fixed form, and that to attribute these to God, a being absolutely infinite, is the greatest absurdity.

Prabhupada: No. God has body, but not this material body. The material body is limited. That does not mean... This is imperfect knowledge of the spiritual quality. God has got body. That is confirmed in Vedic literature, sac-cid-ananda vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means body, a form. But His form is eternal. He is all-aware, sat-cit, and He is always blissful. So this body is neither eternal nor blissful nor all-awareness. Therefore this body is different from God's body. But God has got a body which is different in quality. That is spiritual body.

Hayagriva: He writes, "God is free from passions, nor is He affected with any emotion of joy or sorrow. Properly speaking, God loves no one and hates no one, for God is not affected with any emotion of joy or sorrow, and consequently he neither loves nor hates anyone."

Prabhupada: Yes. He is called atma-pama (?). He doesn't require anything from anyone. He is complete. But if anyone offers Him something out of love, it is his benefit who is offering something to God. God doesn't require anything. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita God says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati: [Bg. 9.26] "A devotee, out of his love, even he offers Me a little leaf, little water, little flower," tad aham asnami, "I eat that." So God is fully satisfied in Himself. Why He desires a patram puspam phalam toyam from a devotee? It is not for His benefit. But if he begins to offer something out of love, then his love begins with God. He gives him the chance. So offering to God does not mean God is benefited. It is benefit of the devotee that he begins to offer, and if he gradually develops that love, then his life is successful. So it is a chance. God does not require anything, but the giver, whatever he, he gives to God, it is for his own benefit. Just like the example is given, the..., if your face is decorated, then the reflection of the face in the mirror is automatically decorated. So we are reflection of God. If God is decorated then we become decorated. That is the idea.

Hayagriva: So when Krsna destroys demons, He does so without passion or without hatred?

Prabhupada: Yes, naturally. It is the benefit of the demon.

Hayagriva: Spinoza writes, "No sorrow can exist with the accompanying idea of God. No one can hate God."

Prabhupada: Therefore He is sac-cid-ananda. That is the description of Vedic literature, ananda-mayo 'bhyasat, by nature is always full of pleasure. He is the source of pleasure. We therefore see Krsna's picture when He is dancing with the gopis, He looks very pleasing, and when He is killing some demon He looks very pleasing. Not that He is morose that His is killing, because you know that He is not killing; He is giving him salvation.

Hayagriva: Well, he says no one can hate God, but what about Kamsa and others?

Prabhupada: That is demonic. Naturally one is in love with God. He should love God. But when he is in maya he thinks himself as separate from God. Instead of loving Him, he thinks himself as separate from God. Instead of loving Him, he thinks that God is hindrance, my competitor of sense gratification, therefore avoid God, kill God, I become absolute sense gratifier. Anyone who hates God means he is a demon.

Hayagriva: Spinoza writes, "The more we understand individual objects, the more we understand God." Is this the proper process? Wouldn't you say that the more we understand God the more we understand individual objects? Which is uh...

Prabhupada: Anything you take, that is perfection of knowledge in God. Which thing is not related with God? Everything is related with God. In the material world anything you will take it is made of the five elements, but these five elements, they are expansion of God's energy. So intelligent person sees in everything with reference to God's expansion of energy. That is the position of devotee. He does not think anything separate from God. And as he is lover of God, devotee of God, he wants to engage everything, because if everything is God's property, that should be used for God's benefit. This is devotee's conception. The asuras, they have no conception of God. Neither they are obedient to God, neither lover of God. He thinks the material world is for his enjoyment. He cannot see the material world is expansion of God's energy. Therefore anyone who uses the material product for his personal benefit, he is called a thief. Just like I have created something. If somebody use up that something and does not think of the proprietor, he is a thief. Thief means, in our childhood we got a definition of thief, that anything taken without the permission the property is theft. That is very nice. So anything in this world has reference to the expansion of energy of God. So if you do not take everything as prasadam, then you are thief and you are punishable. A thief is always punished. So therefore those who are enjoying things without reference to the God, they are all demons and they are punishable. They are thieves.

Hayagriva: That's all on Spinoza. (end)