Room Conversation with Svarūpa Dāmodara – February 28, 1977, Māyāpur

This civilization has no value. It is a demonic civilization

Prabhupada: ... make there the varnasrama established, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra-division, scientific division of the society. Ideal state. Just like the legislative assembly, they should be composed of men with complete brahminical culture. And the ministers, president, they should be ksatriya, and the productive, vaisyas, and balance sudra, worker. Unless an ideal class of men is on the top of the state to give advice-just like Britishers, they assemble Parliament-there cannot be any improvement to the human society. All nonsense and rascals, simply by votes go to be member of the Parliament, like that. What they know? What they'll do? The whole world is mismanaged because there is no brahminical culture. Namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca, jagad-dhitaya krsnaya govinda... [Visnu Purana 1.19.65].

I am proposing this because Krsna consciousness means namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca. That must be... The state must be in favor of brahminical culture and cow protection. Then everything will be all right. So Manipur is small state. If they agree, the leaders of the... It is not politics; it is betterment of the situation. And without brahminical culture, all these third class, fourth class, loafer class, simply by votes, hooks and crooks, and becomes president, Nixon and so on. Where is the betterment? It will never be.

Tamala Krsna: All bluffers.

Prabhupada: All. So Manipur is a small state. If it is possible... Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: So I should ask some of them to...

Prabhupada: Hmm. If some of the leaders may come and see me. Just like the governor of Chandigarh. He's nice man. He came to see me in his governmental position, with his aide-de-camp, car and men. So I think Manipuri people... And it is a Vaisnava state, why not make it Krsna conscious? They are already Krsna conscious. Make it in a systematic way.

Svarupa Damodara: These chief minister, they claim... They're called R.K.s, means raja-kumaras or princess. Claim to be the descendants of the...

Prabhupada: Babhruvahana. Then he can do that. He can do that. And what is the wrong? Suppose the legislators become first-class brahmana, so what is the wrong there? Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. In Manipur, it's not so much influenced yet from outside civilization.

Prabhupada: Therefore I suggest. They are Vaisnavas. They can take it and show an ideal state in the world. Then others may follow.

Svarupa Damodara: Every day in the radio, they have this Caitanya-caritamrta reading at one o'clock.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: In the radio, all Manipur radio, is this Caitanya-caritamrta. They read Bengali. Somebody... One reads and another translates. It is a regular feature. And Mahabharata, Ramayana. These are radio programs.

Prabhupada: Just see. So why not? I may go or not go, but let the leaders take up this process to make Manipur an ideal state of Krsna consciousness.

Tamala Krsna: It's already practically... It's already a lot of Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. And they are coming from Babhruvahana. Babhruvahana is the son of Arjuna.

Brahmananda: They have much farming there.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is wanted. Farming is wanted. What is this nonsense industry? When I passed through Berkeley and New York, really hellish, these buildings. Some of them are finished, all broken. Similarly London also. This civilization has no value. It is a demonic civilization. Jagatah ahitaya. Find out this, Sixteenth. Ugra-karma, jagatah ahitaya.

"Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world."

Prabhupada: That's it. This is going on. And what is their prakara? Kama. But simply sense gratification. But previous to this verse?

Prabhupada: Before that.

Hrdayananda: The verse before?

Prabhupada: Yes. Etam drstim avastabhya.

And the next verse has a kamam.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Prabhupada: Asad-grahan: "There is no God. By science we shall do everything. We shall..." What is this? A mad, crazy fellow. And this is going on all over. "Test tube. We shall... Test tube." Simply set of madmen. And influencing innocent. The rascal, whole civilization, they are. It is a horrible condition. All rascals. And the big rascals, they are enjoying. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. Just like a big rascal, a lion is very big, important thing in the forest. What is this? He's animal. So they create importance of this animal. One big animal is being praised by a small animal. That's all. But the whole civilization is animal. And because the small animals are praising the big animals, does it mean it is human society? That is going on. The Mr. Nixon, [laughs] he's an animal, and Mr. John is praising him. That's all. Both of them are animals. Mudha. Big animals and small animals. That's all. So we have to stop this. This is Krsna consciousness movement. So am I right when I speak, say like that?

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: You are all intelligent.

Tamala Krsna: Svarupa Damodara Prabhu was mentioning that he held a conference in Delhi. Maybe he could tell you about that.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, I went to the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences. It's a big medical school in India. So I spoke in the... They have a department called Biophysics. So I presented our philosophy, science in the Krsna consciousness. The head of the department was... His name was R. K. Mishra. So he's actually quite well known international figure.

Prabhupada: Fame.

Svarupa Damodara: He had a lot of grants from the United States. From Europe also.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: He had grants, money, coming from the United States to support his research. So he was on opposite side, but we had a very interesting discussion. And he told me later on that he was a keen follower of Saṅkaracarya. I said, "Why?" because I was speaking, "There are innumerable lives." I was giving examples that we are not as one, but there are innumerable forms of life depending on the level of consciousness, giving examples, scientific examples. Then he answered that traditionally his forefathers, his parents, his grandfathers, became followers of Saṅkaracarya, so he became some sort of addicted to it, but he said he's not one hundred percent follower of Saṅkaracarya.

Prabhupada: Individual. Where there is question of mixing? Saṅkaracarya's mistake is that the spirit is a mixture, and in maya state, they're divided. Is it not? So when the division is finished, then it is spirit. But Krsna does not say that. He says in the past we are individual, at present we are individual, and in future we shall continue to be individual.

Svarupa Damodara: Seems that we have a good field in medicine, speaking with doctors. It's very interesting. And because they deal with life, so my first question is "What is life?" I just ask them, "What is your concept of life?" And they become very...

Prabhupada: Concept of life is clear in the Bhagavad-gita. That is also one of the elements, but superior element. The gross earth, water, air, fire, ether, even mind, intelligence, ego, they are inferior. And there is another superior item. That is living entity. It is clearly said. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho [Bg 7.5].

And that is important because that living entity is handling this inferior. Very clear. Just like a good machine. That machine as it is, it is not important. A living entity has handled it. By handling, the machine is prepared, and by handling it is important. So who is superior: this matter or the person who is handling? And it's clear-yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg 7.5]. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate. It is clear. And similarly, whole machine must be handled by a living creature. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caraca... [Bg 9.10]. Clear. How you can deny it? Taking this whole cosmic manifestation as machine... It is machine. We admit that. But it is being handled by a living being, the supreme living being. That is God. But they have no intelligence to understand. Such a rascal civilization. Practically we are seeing. Mudhah nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam [Bg 7.13].

[bird chirping loudly] Stop.

Svarupa Damodara: They were very thankful for the lecture. They actually made comment, saying that this is the strongest statement that they ever heard in the department, that such a scientific comparative study. 'Cause I showed these charts that we have, and I was comparing...

Prabhupada: That is very encouraging. So pursue this method with your assistants. That is our challenge. That will enhance the importance of our movement.

Svarupa Damodara: They even suggested that in the future, if we had any plan like that, we should just let them know for about two or three weeks ahead so they can arrange others also in the other departments.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Do immediately. Your business is that. You take these scientists and other intelligent... Everyone is intelligent, but especially to convince them. "Birds of the same feather." Otherwise they'll not mix. We are already hamsas or swans, but to mix with the crow, we shall dress ourself like a crow. [laughter]

Svarupa Damodara: Just like I went with pant and like...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Otherwise the crows will make a noise, "Kaw, kaw, kaw, kaw, kaw." [laughter] Because society, this whole society is full of crows. They are not even nice birds. So what can be done?

Svarupa Damodara: It's very encouraging.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Especially in India...

Prabhupada: Therefore...

Svarupa Damodara: It's my first experience. The man whom I met in Bombay is the head of the chemistry section of the Bhabha Atomic Research Center where they made this atomic bomb.

Prabhupada: Pedder. Pedder Road.

Svarupa Damodara: In Trombay.

Prabhupada: Oh, Trombay. Oh, yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So I went there, and I had three and a half hours' discussion.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Very good.

Svarupa Damodara: But he was on the other side.

Prabhupada: Opposite side.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. [laughs]

Hari-sauri: Demon.

Prabhupada: No, no. Let them demon, but we are talking like gentleman.

Svarupa Damodara: He's the only man that I knew from outside, from the United States, from the Scientific Journal. His name was one of the editorial boards. They have also an international society for the study of the origin of life from chemicals, and he's the...

Prabhupada: Oh. Oh.

Svarupa Damodara: So I specifically chose him because I knew his name, because it was there. So I made an appointment on the telephone. He was real nice on the phone. He even wanted to send his car to pick me up from the temple.

Prabhupada: Oh, then very respectful, yes. Very respectful. [laughter]

Svarupa Damodara: When I went there I started talking a little about Hare Krsna.Then he immediately he said he didn't like Hare Krsna people. So I said...

Prabhupada: So he knows Hare Krsna people.

Svarupa Damodara: He knew that I was from Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: No... And he said, "I do not like Hare Krsna people"? They said?

Svarupa Damodara: He said that two times some of the devotees approached him, and he said they are very arrogant, and he expressed some ideas, and he was not so much favorable.

Brahmananda: This was here in India or in America?

Svarupa Damodara: In Bombay. This was in Bombay. Then I told him that "Let's forget about the religion now. Let's talk about science."

Prabhupada: [chuckles] Then that is all right. Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Then we started talking about the concept of life. So he would say that life is just combination of molecules, and I started asking questions because I knew all what he was doing. I was following his papers. But he didn't know what he was doing. Then it came up to the point that he agreed to the limitations that we have in so many words that we say, but actually it's not true.

Prabhupada: He admitted.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. But still, he said that this is the best theory that they have at this time. So this is the only time they get the chance of doing something, so they want to continue whether it comes out right or wrong, but just some sort of a game.

Hari-sauri: They can't afford to lose their grants.

Svarupa Damodara: He said in about twenty years...

Prabhupada: Again time, time-taking. [laughter]

Svarupa Damodara: ...the matter is completely to be decided. He said, "Either religion wins or we win." He said, "It will be decided pretty soon." I think it is already decided, because we promised about ten years ago that those chemicals, if we make those, then we'll have life in a test tube. But actually we have all those chemicals made. So I said, "We have the know-hows. We have the equipments. We have all the chemicals. But still we can't do it." So that means it's..., cannot be done.

Prabhupada: It is failure. You cannot do.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, in principle he agreed that science plays...

Prabhupada: And Bhagavad-gita clearly said it is different thing completely. It is not matter. Nainam chindanti sastrani. Where is that thing which cannot be cut into pieces? Bring that, any scientist. Bring that thing which cannot be cut by scientific method. Bring that thing which cannot be burned. That is stated. Find out the verse. You cannot neglect the statement of Krsna.

"The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire nor moistened by water nor withered by the wind."

Prabhupada: So where is that thing? Bring. Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: That is also our conclusion, that... Especially it is very useful in India to refer to Bhagavad-gita. I bring up Bhagavad-gita. I said, "If this can be done, then Bhagavad-gita will be wrong."

Prabhupada: Yes. Prove that.

Svarupa Damodara: So it's not possible. So I also spoke in an Indian school in Bombay. There are about some three hundred students, plus professors. We even had a short kirtana, Giriraja and about four, five devotees there, selling little books outside. So there was... They wanted us start with a kirtana. So we started Hare Krsna, and then they themselves started. The students started leading kirtana. And I spoke on the... They all saw all the nice equipment...

Prabhupada: Krsna-bhakti nitya-siddha [Cc Madhya 22.107]. This propensity is there already. We are simply awakening. That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: I found that in India, though there are some people like that, but they are not as arrogant as... They are a little...

Prabhupada: Because background is Krsna conscious. Sukrtina. Sukrtina. They're not so sinful. In India they're not so sinful as the Western. Sukrtina. Catur-vidha bhajante mam janah sukrtina arjuna [Bg 7.16]. And in the Western countries they are simply acting sinfully. Now Kirtanananda was prosecuted because he is not killing cows.

Devotee: He's not what?

Hari-sauri: Not killing his cows.

Brahmananda: By having them grow old, they were saying that "This is cruelty. You should kill them."

Prabhupada: This is their civilization, that "You are not killing? You are cruel." [laughs] Just see. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." That is cruel. How can you pull on this civilization? But this is their religion. So what kind of persons they are?

Svarupa Damodara: There's some misunderstanding. When I came from New York, there was one Christian minister. He was going to Bangalore, India, but I was all the way from New York to Delhi with him. We sat together side by side, and since he was a minister, he was interested in what I was doing, so we started talking about philosophy and the science of the self. So I asked that "Mostly we are told that in Christianity, many people don't believe that there is soul in animals." He said same thing, and he was a minister. In animals, plants...

Prabhupada: Big animal. He's a big animal. Animals... He is also animal, but big animal. That is what he... That I have already said: small animals. Sva-vid... What is that? Vid-vara... Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. He's a purusa, he's a very exalted person, but he's a pasu, animal, because he does not know anything about spiritual life.

Svarupa Damodara: If people know some of these very basic principle of life, that they all the living entities like animals and these things, they are all...

Prabhupada: Superior than the matter. That how you can deny it? Krsna says clearly, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim param, jiva-bhutam maha-baho [Bg 7.5]. They cannot... They're so dull, they cannot understand it.

Tamala Krsna: Their heads are filled with dung.

Prabhupada: Two things are there already. Any layman can understand. A person living-a person dead. So why he is dead? Something is missing. So that missing element is important or this body is important? These rascals cannot understand even, so dull brain.

Tamala Krsna: A common farmer here can understand that.

Prabhupada: Yes. These two things are there: living force and the body. The body is moving because the living force is there. So which one is important, the body or the living force? Without living force, the same body, the same hand, legs, everything, face, everything is there. Kick on his face-no response. And when he is living, touch his hair-"Oh, who are you? Why you are touching me?" [laughter] So which is important? The consciousness is important or this body? Such a rascal, they cannot understand it. And we have to deal with this civilization. Mudha, rascals.

Rupanuga: From Svarupa Damodara Prabhu's experience, it appears that India is the best place to begin our attack on science.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Rupanuga: Because we can recruit Indian scientists, I think, and then to...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Rupanuga: ...America we can make some headway. Because America, the scientists are very arrogant and dogmatic. They're not so receptive. Here there is...

Prabhupada: Big, big animals. Big animals. They are animals, but big animals, because they have got money. Yes. "Money is sweeter than honey."

Tamala Krsna: That Bombay auditorium, theater, Prabhupada was saying, could be used for so many meetings.

Bali-mardana: Meetings. Conferences. Scientific conferences.

Prabhupada: Yes. Simply.

Svarupa Damodara: We can give very nice slide show there.

Prabhupada: So you make Bombay your headquarter. India means Bombay. And from Bombay you go and come. Make this...

Bali-mardana: In the West now Indian scientists have a big name because they are making...

Prabhupada: And recruit Indian scientists. Make it. It will be very nice. Let us go to Bombay and organize.

Rupanuga: Because India now has the bomb, they are respected.

Bali-mardana: Atom bomb.

Prabhupada: No, Indian people are more intelligent. There is no doubt about it. I... At least I see that during British period there were so many railway collisions. Now it is not there.

Bali-mardana: So many what?

Tamala Krsna: Railway collisions, and now there is none with the Indian drivers. Oh, yeah. We don't find... Although the roads are horrible here and there's no lights, there are very few accidents.

Prabhupada: That I have studied already, that British period, occasionally so many railway accidents. But the Indian people, since svaraja, I see no railway accidents. And they are being managed, these railway lines, by sudra class, less-intelligent class. So they are so intelligent.

Rupanuga: Compared to the British.

Tamala Krsna: They sent their best men here.

Prabhupada: The fireman, the Indian driver, the signal man, they are not very high class men.

Rupanuga: In America the scientists are like the blacksmiths. They're like just blacksmiths. And in India the scientists may have some culture...

Prabhupada: Blacksmith or black snake?

Rupanuga: Both. [laughs] But at least in India...

Prabhupada: So organize in India. Make your headquarters in India.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Gopala Krsna already told me that he will give us two rooms.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Two, three, as many rooms, you take.

Hari-sauri: The whole building. [laughs]

Tamala Krsna: That theater is very prominent.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Bombay's very nice.

Prabhupada: Very nice? Yes. Now see. [laughter] He is one of the person who helped you. When I went to Africa I asked Brahmananda, "Are you going to support me?" He said, "Yes, I'll do." Then I signed. Otherwise I hesitated, that "These people are denying property..."

Svarupa Damodara: The people are envious of Bombay, especially this man, Sada. He's head of the Trombay that I talked. He was the... Everybody knew about our temple.

Prabhupada: That is a good advertisement.

Svarupa Damodara: It's not even complete yet, but already everybody knows about it. So popular.

Prabhupada: And there is a big history behind this. [laughs] They wanted to throw away Radha-Rasa-vihariji. And I prayed always, "If You are thrown away, then it is..., my life is thrown away. You must stay here. It is a great insult." So He has not moved an inch.

Svarupa Damodara: I've taken all the parts of the picture of the temple, because I want to show to Manipur ministers, so that...

Prabhupada: So, first thing make your headquarter in Bombay, and make Manipur a Vaisnava state. And recruit all scientists. And then attack these rascals, big animals. Shoot them, big animals.

Hari-sauri: Like a scientific safari.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are opposing. Intelligent men, they are seeing that "This movement will finish our civilization." They are afraid. They have already said, "It is increasing like epidemic, and if we don't check them, within ten years they'll take the government."

Hari-sauri: A government official in Houston said it on the TV.

Bali-mardana: They are afraid for their lives.

Prabhupada: So I am very much attached to that palace.

Bhagavan: We are very much attached to you.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Come on. Krsna-Balarama. Jaya. Very nice. [someone showing pictures?] Jaya Krsna-Balarama. We have got Balarama, the most powerful being, so we have no fear. Balarama. Nayam atma bala-hinena labhyah. Bala-hinena labhyah. "One who is not supported by Balarama, he cannot understand, cannot come to the spiritual platform." Na medhaya na bahuna srutena [Katha Upanisad 1.2.23]. By intelligence one cannot. He must be supported by Balarama, big brother of Krsna. [laughter]

Svarupa Damodara: When I came today from Krishnanagar to here, Navadvipa ghata, on the bus, I was speaking about going to Gaudiya Matha, and somebody almost gave a lecture, said that... They were speaking in Bengali, but I knew what they were speaking. They were talking about ISKCON, about Abhay Caranaravinda's mission.

Prabhupada: Jaya. [laughs]

Svarupa Damodara: hey were saying, "There are things going on and we must also go there." Somebody was advising this group of people to come. [break]

Prabhupada: And on this Krsna culture, the India was ruling all over the world. During Pariksit Maharaja time there was only one flag. And now go to the United States organization-simply flag increasing, "United."

Brahmananda: In Africa they just made a new country. It's the smallest country in the world. It's one little island. Now it's independent country.

Prabhupada: This is going on. So for the time being let this program: we go to Vrndavana, and from Vrndavana to Bombay, and then we make program there. Is that all right? If possible, invite some ministers.

Svarupa Damodara: But if you were to go to Manipur we have to make arrangements.

Prabhupada: We can go from Bombay. What is the difficulty? From here or Bombay, after all, we have to go by plane, so there is no difficulty. Manipur going, there is no direct plane from Bombay to Manipur?

Svarupa Damodara: No. From Bombay to Calcutta, Calcutta to Imphala, Manipur.

Prabhupada: So that is not difficult. We can come to Calcutta and go to Manipur. But if you organize Bombay center, recruit scientists, hold meeting, that is very nice proposal. There must be some state, ideal state. Just like the Russia is Communist state, and they're making nice propaganda, similarly we must have a Krsna conscious state. What do you think?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is example.

Rupanuga: A good example is needed. A good example.

Prabhupada: Either Manipur, anywhere, but we must have now a Krsna conscious state. And we shall show how ideal state, wherever it is possible. I am not speaking particularly of Manipur, but Manipur, there is good chance. But we must have a Krsna conscious state. So go. Take prasadam.

Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [end]