Conversation with Bhakti-caitanya Swami–New GBC – June 30, 1977, Vṛndāvana

No, 'try...' Actually prove. No, don't try

Prabhupada: Because we are materially attached, so there is temporary inconvenience. Tams titiksasva bharata [Bg 2.14]: "Tolerate." Don't be puffed up, "Oh, after giving so many..." Oh.

Tamala Krsna: After you go in the back for a massage, he'll ask some questions.

Prabhupada: That's nice. What are those... [break]

Tamala Krsna: ...is flying in an airplane from Los Angeles to India via Hawaii, but in the picture that we have drawn, there is no way you can go from Los Angeles to India via Hawaii. If you go this direction, from Los Angeles, say, this way, you don't come to India. India's over here according to our description. Yet when they take a flight, they say, "We go around the earth." But we say, "You cannot go around the earth." So far, our understanding... So far-unless we have not completely understood yet-it is like a lotus, Jambudvipa, and the whole Bhu-mandala is like a lotus. So how do... You cannot fly around Bharata-varsa, or earth. Yet every day the whole science of aeronautics, of flying, is based upon the fact that they're flying around different places of the earth. And everyone who sees this, that, our description, is going to ask this question. It's a very important question to answer, and Bhakti-prema has not yet answered it. None of us can. We are avoiding it at this point until we get further information. There must be an answer, but we have not yet been able to give the answer. I have absolute faith in these..., in the Vedic description. I am completely convin... I just know that I have not understood perfectly yet. Therefore the answer's not apparent. But it's definitely a question that they will raise. [break]

Prabhupada: Give him this letter with immigration card.

Tamala Krsna: He has sent it to us.

Prabhupada: No, he has given me personally.

Tamala Krsna: I don't think I follow you. Mr. Bal Subhramanya from Indian Overseas Bank?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. He... [break]

Tamala Krsna: Virtually half gone. His wife and his father-in-law have...

Prabhupada: Where is Mr. Myer?

Tamala Krsna: Where is Mr. Myer?

Aksayananda: Oh, he is taking his breakfast just now. He is here.

Prabhupada: So what he is doing?

Aksayananda: He's been looking at all our management and giving very good advice. The first day he was helping me on the devotee side. Then, for the last couple of days he was looking in the guesthouse side, and...

Prabhupada: The guesthouse is filled up with these women and children?

Aksayananda: No.

Prabhupada: Then? It should be...

Tamala Krsna: How many women live in the guesthouse?

Aksayananda: As... As for the names of devotees, there's about ten as paying guests.

Prabhupada: Paying guest?

Aksayananda: They are also paying. Some women are paying guests for their [indistinct].

Prabhupada: No, if they are paying, that is all right.

Tamala Krsna: How many are living, not paying?

Aksayananda: Not paying, there are about ten.

Prabhupada: So where they are living?

Aksayananda: They are living... There is one room. They all live together in one room. Some...

Prabhupada: That is all right.

Aksayananda: They're all engaged with...[?] We have got very tight watch to see that they're working. At least they [indistinct].

Prabhupada: They live together, say, one room. That's all.

Aksayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: But I hear that they occupy with children, but they pay for it.

Aksayananda: That's right.

Prabhupada: If they are paying, that's all right.

Tamala Krsna: I... I didn't hear that.

Aksayananda: No, there is one. At the back side there is one lady with child, because that room is not favored by the guests. She is the wife of one of the senior men, and there's no other place. That is just one exception.

Prabhupada: If they're paying guest, that's all right.

Aksayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Anyway, guestroom should not be misused by the unnecessary women and children. That should not be allowed. If one cannot pay, she may go the mass.

Aksayananda: Yes. I've always tried to minimize that problem.

Prabhupada: No, "try..." Actually prove. No, don't try.

Aksayananda: I'm doing it, actually, at the expense of... They get angry, but...

Prabhupada: There is no question of angry. It is not our...

Aksayananda: Just recently I sent about three or four of them out, and they all became...

Prabhupada: If they want to live without any payment, let them go to Mayapur. There is enough place. We don't deny them. But here, in the guestroom, they will occupy without any payment...

Aksayananda: No, there's only one big room. It's right at the back, and it's not a very nice room. The guests do not like that room. And they have... I sent two or three to Ahmedabad also. They have a little room, Ahmedabad, Yasomati-nandan.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Aksayananda: Yasomati-nandana, he has also facility, so often I send them there.

Prabhupada: Yasomati-nandana? Ahmedabad?

Aksayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Aksayananda: Especially single women.

Prabhupada: They can go to Hyderabad, Ahmedabad. And why here? This should be stopped and independence given[?].

Aksayananda: Today's a special Govardhana-parikrama, so we're sending out women and men both, for book distribution. Tamala had a suggestion. We made a competition between the men and women, who will distribute the most books.

Prabhupada: What is the time now?

Tamala Krsna: It's about five minutes after nine, Srila Prabhupada.

Aksayananda: I went to the gate site this morning. They are digging. They have made enormous holes, taking about two days to dig. Now there's some hitch from the P.W.D. about materials list... When our construction man Adbhuta comes at ten o'clock, I will meet with him and find out exactly... They had bogus sculptor working.

Prabhupada: P.W.D?

Aksayananda: Yeah, but our... At ten o'clock I'll find out. After your darsana I'll find out what the details are. But they've already dug two enormous big holes.

Prabhupada: The municipality has got sanction.

Aksayananda: Sanction is there. Some red tape. I'll find out later. Something about materials, iron materials, reinforcement, how much they need. They're always finding some tricks.

Prabhupada: So the P.W.D. has objected.

Aksayananda: Some objection.

Tamala Krsna: Why don't we wait until we find out? Actually, to speak of the contract, when we're going to find out?

Aksayananda: That's what I say. I'll see him at ten o'clock, after the darsana in the temple, and find out whether...

Prabhupada: Hmm. Yes.

Aksayananda: But they have to be very large holes for the foundation, so that it's strong.

Prabhupada: Yes, firmly strong.

Aksayananda: So that in itself has taken two days and maybe not finished yet. I'll keep watching them.

Prabhupada: All right. [break] So what you can do? He was floating? He was on the...[?] "So I know three medicines. One is castor oil; one is quinine; another is mag salt."

Tamala Krsna: What is the last one?

Prabhupada: Quinine.

Tamala Krsna: Quinine and magnesium salt?

Prabhupada: Yes. And castor oil. "And all my other medicines, they are business."

Satadhanya: They are what?

Tamala Krsna: They are business; simply making money.

Prabhupada: He said like that. He did not like to tell me this. He's a doctor. When he was indisposed, he'll sit down silently for three days, and he will give this quinine, castor oil, himself.

Gopala Krsna: Quinine is poisonous, isn't it?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Gopala Krsna: Quinine is not kept in...

Prabhupada: Quinine is fever and Cinchona. And he said like that. "I have no..." So why these three? [break]

Satadhanya: We'll move the bed. We brought the hot water.

Tamala Krsna: It almost seems like Mr. Bose was like a second father to you.

Prabhupada: Yes. My father's friend.

Tamala Krsna: Was he very close to your father?

Prabhupada: Very. He appointed me manager for this relationship.

Tamala Krsna: He trusted you implicitly, like a son.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We were exactly like son.

Tamala Krsna: Will you want to see Bhakti-caitanya Swami again today?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: I was talking with him about the temple that he proposes to make.

Prabhupada: Temple is not very important thing. First important thing is distribution. That is our main business.

Tamala Krsna: The restaurant was filled again today. So opulent.

Prabhupada: What is the special feature?

Tamala Krsna: I haven't figured that out. I know what it is though. The special feature is this, Srila Prabhupada. There's a number of things. One thing, there's no other place in Vrndavana where you can sit in such a good atmosphere. That room is very large. The tables are first class, marble. There are very nice decorations, and the service is very good. And they serve ice water. And the prasadam is also better than at the Jaipuria Guesthouse or most of the other guesthouses. And it's very inexpensive, four rupees for as much as you want to eat, palatable. And it's right in our own guesthouse. The people live here, and then they don't have to go anywhere. They just walk down to the dining room, and they get very good prasadam, good service, inexpensive, good atmosphere. It's become a very popular place. But it's too hot for me. I have difficulty eating the sabji because it's very spicy, but I think it's liked by the Indian people.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Tamala Krsna: I know, in New York, that is one of their complaints, the Indian people, that we don't cook spicy enough. Too bland for their palate. And we're not accustomed to that so much, hot spices. They like.

Prabhupada: Without spices, Indians should not cook.

Tamala Krsna: No, they won't digest it either.

Prabhupada: You'll be surprised how what quantity of spices toward[?] Indians. There is a Calcutta wholesale market of spices. They... Everywhere, not Calcutta... Chili, they are sold in big, big bag. We have seen in Hyderabad a spice shop, chili, large shop. And amongst the spices, the chili is most favorable.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, they like it very much. You also use it.

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone. And there are so many spices.

Tamala Krsna: The spice merchants are usually pious men who become members, I have found. In any city...

Prabhupada: They have got money.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Very often the Marwaris, they are in that...

Prabhupada: Gujarati.

Tamala Krsna: The Gujarati, yeah, Gujarat. In Bombay there is a big Bombay tri[?]. Pancadravida Swami, that was his special area. He would go down there, huge spice area.

Prabhupada: There is a special name of that place. Everyone, every poor man or rich man, must use quantity of spice.

Tamala Krsna: I was surprised. In Bombay this one Life Member, very wealthy man... I thought, "Oh, this man must have many businesses." And I found that he only had one business. He simply exports cardamom. And he's a very wealthy man, and he simply exports little cardamom seeds, but such quantities, and it fetches a very good price abroad.

Prabhupada: Yes, there are many merchants. They deal in quantity and stock huge. Nobody can compete with him.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, they buy everybody's out.

Prabhupada: He can give so cheap one lakh. Somebody gives you a black..., what is called? Berries, berries.

Upendra: Black pepper?

Prabhupada: Black pepper.

Tamala Krsna: So you'll take the Milk of Magnesia.

Prabhupada: Yes, and little [indistinct].

Tamala Krsna: Okay. [indistinct] Maybe you'll get immediately, I mean, if you take it before going to take rest.

Prabhupada: No, before going, take out.

Tamala Krsna: Maybe after bed, when you sit up. Nice thing about that is that it's easily available, very common.

Prabhupada: Phillip's? Phillip's?

Tamala Krsna: Phillip's, yes, Srila Prabhupada. [break]

Prabhupada: I can understand from the dealings of the paper, Chandigarh affairs there is a very good field. You have also come. You have also...

Trivikrama: Yes, I can hear. Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Combine together. What is the difficulty?

Trivikrama: The one thing in my mind is that... I've been in Delhi a little while. I see that such a good pla... We could... Seems like if he was there also, somehow if we had... If we had Delhi as well as the whole... And you say Punjab. If that also included Delhi, I think we could manage, because the boy who's a president, he's a neophyte devotee, and aside from that, there's so many big men who've been our members for many years. They want to help, but no one is cultivating them. Caitya-guru..., er, Bhakti-caitanya and myself, we went to see a man yesterday, and they were so respectful. They've seen our movement in the foreign countries, and they've been our member five or six years, but no one is there who is capable of drawing them. So he was also... Because he knows the language and he... It was... My feeling is... Because Gopala Krsna, he's always in Bombay, he doesn't... Not always, but he couldn't take as much interest in the Delhi affairs.

Tamala Krsna: Well, there's a couple of points. I discussed this with them. One thing is that your idea was that Trivikrama Maharaja should go with Bhakti-caitanya to Punjab. So bringing up Delhi now doesn't solve anything, 'cause Trivikrama is already in Delhi. Whether Bhakti-caitanya Maharaja is eventually in charge of Delhi or Gopala Krsna is in charge of Delhi, in any case the real point is that Prabhupada advised that he wanted you to go to Chandigarh, 'cause that's where we want to develop.

Prabhupada: So if you cannot combinedly manage the Delhi and Chandigarh?

Trivikrama: Very easy.

Prabhupada: Do that.

Bhakti-caitanya: That's what I was feeling, that if I will be in Chandigarh or Delhi, the service is the same.

Prabhupada: If... Let them have the management of Delhi[?].

Trivikrama: It's only a few hours by car, two hours.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: 'Cause from Delhi I want to collect our funds for Delhi and for Chandigarh, and Delhi we will keep our head office, and we will cover the whole north, because...

Prabhupada: Very good. Yes. In Delhi...

Bhakti-caitanya: ...we have a nice part to work.

Tamala Krsna: So you don't think Gopala will be feeling sorry about Delhi being in his zone? Now he's going to...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: And Gopala won't feel... I mean, I...

Prabhupada: It is not the question of feeling. It is the question of work for our...

Tamala Krsna: I mean, I also can see it may be good. I'm just trying to..., that he should not feel...

Prabhupada: Why he should feel? If you have to work, you have to work for Krsna.

Bhakti-caitanya: Actually we are taking a burden from his head.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: He has to go here and there. And I am putting up much responsibility between Maharaja and myself.

Trivikrama: One other point is Raj Kumar Gupta, that man who is so devoted. He's now sitting in Delhi.

Prabhupada: So you combinedly do. That will be...

Bhakti-caitanya: I am sure that if... With your blessing... Because Gupta is very influential in Delhi, and Delhi, we will also be able to get the men sitting in the rear[?] if we want, because he has so much influence in the ministry now.

Prabhupada: Who?

Bhakti-caitanya: That Mr. Raj Kumar Gupta. He is the right man in the ministry now. That Kedaranath Sahni, the mayor of Delhi, he always... He is a fast friend. So if we have influential man... Now he has shifted his office from Chandigarh to Delhi, so I have to get the all the donation for Chandigarh from him, through him. So if he will introduce me to his friends in Delhi, and Delhi people will mind if I will take our money to Chandigarh, so what I was wondering is collect that money from Delhi from all over, put in Delhi and Chandigarh together, all the North India.

Trivikrama: There will be no shortage of money. There's so much... Just yesterday a man gave five thousand rupees. And he wasn't even a big man. Small man. Big man, we can get. There's so many.

Bhakti-caitanya: [laughs] Yes, practically because we have no small big man.

Prabhupada: So it is very good combination. So why Gopala should be sorry that I don't know. Is there any reason?

Tamala Krsna: Well, he'll feel that he's worked in Delhi before. He's developed the Delhi temple. If he feels he can work with it, they'll be...

Prabhupada: If he can also join, what is that?

Tamala Krsna: He won't... I'm speaking... I'm just... We don't want him to become disappointed. I know in the past sometimes Gopala gets disappointed.

Trivikrama: He has so much to do in Bombay with the book, BBT.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: I'm not giving my opinion. I'm only speaking on the fact that we should not in any way...

Trivikrama: Yeah, discourage our Godbrothers.

Tamala Krsna: ...discourage him so that he feels, "All right..." Sometimes in the past that happened in Vrndavana.

Trivikrama: I can talk to him. I'm his friend. There's not some plot or something.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, he can also look over, but he should work..., let us allow to work in Delhi.

Trivikrama: We can work together. We're all brothers.

Bhakti-caitanya: We have to spread the..., put the Prabhupada's books in everyone's house and spread this movement.

Trivikrama: To think "big ISKCON."

Bhakti-caitanya: Anywhere, doesn't matter.

Prabhupada: Try to bring that cooperation. So he is GBC for Delhi.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So let him be a GBC. He's GBC for Punjab. Both together, let them work. What is the wrong?

Bhakti-caitanya: Actually, Delhi comes under North India.

Prabhupada: Delhi is part of Punjab.

Tamala Krsna: It is, Punjab... And it makes sense, perfect sense.

Prabhupada: No, we have to work. If he has got more business in Bombay for printing work, and mostly he spends his time in Bombay...

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, too, he spends at least two weeks in Bombay, and then he spends about at least another week here in Vrndavana.

Trivikrama: He's two or three days out of a month only.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah.

Prabhupada: No, we have to adjust things. It is not sentiment; it is business. So whenever he is required, we can do for printing.

Trivikrama: Yeah, he can go and...

Bhakti-caitanya: He can help us. He cannot avoid us.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: If he will come and help us, that will be a very... But if I will be in Delhi, I can preach. I can go with them for preaching. I don't have to sit in the office.

Prabhupada: It is not that he is prohibited to enter Delhi. It is not...

Tamala Krsna: Actually, as an organizer, he takes pleasure in, you know, developing a center. So he's worked on that center.

Prabhupada: Center is already there. There are... Not that there is no center. So that center may be given up. We have got already a place. Not that...

Tamala Krsna: I'm speaking only that he's worked on developing with Bhagavatasraya the president and others...

Prabhupada: Let him do.

Tamala Krsna: But he won't be... Now he won't be the GBC, so he may feel, "Why I was removed as GBC?"

Prabhupada: But he's GBC. He's GBC, but another GBC is joining. Where is the wrong?

Tamala Krsna: Jointly.

Prabhupada: Yes, jointly. He is in charge of Punjab, and he'll be..., work in Delhi. What is that? I cannot un... So it is simply sentiment.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, it is. On his part it is a sentiment.

Prabhupada: That's right. So induce him to go. We have to work.

Bhakti-caitanya: So we are going this evening back, because I have to see Mr. Gupta tomorrow morning, to get the permission from my father[?]...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: So I think that I should...

Prabhupada: Arrange this. If it is done complete... Otherwise, all combine together. Is that all right?

Trivikrama: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupada: If you create faction amongst yourselves, then what will come? Problems. Why?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, there should be no difficulty in working together.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: It should be better.

Bhakti-caitanya: Yes.

Trivikrama: Actually he'll be pleased. When results are coming, why won't he be enlivened also? If he sees men are taking more interest... I think he's advanced enough...

Prabhupada: Let him concentrate especially on printing work.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, that's actually what all of the devotees here have tried to encourage him, that "You have so much to do in printing." Just like Ramesvara's is such a full-time engagement.

Prabhupada: So manage very nice. That is required. If there is good demand for Hindi books...

Bhakti-caitanya: Yes, every actually week we sell nearly...

Prabhupada: And what about his complaint about books?

Tamala Krsna: I've discussed that with him, but I... I think also that you have to probably send some money to the BBT.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, money means that... Money I have to send. I owe fifteen thousand rupees. I have in the bank fifteen thousand, I can send it.

Tamala Krsna: But the point is that you have outstanding bills.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, that is the only fifteen thousand rupees up to today.

Tamala Krsna: Why not...? Maybe that will encourage...

Bhakti-caitanya: Yeah, I give them up, last time when Gopala was there about month ago, I gave him about five thousand rupees. I gave. But I keep some, you know. The point is that if I will get the books, from the books I could make up money. If I will go like as this...

Prabhupada: No, no. What is your debt to the BBT?

Bhakti-caitanya: Fifteen thousand rupees.

Prabhupada: So why don't you pay?

Bhakti-caitanya: I will pay it.

Prabhupada: Then let him.

Tamala Krsna: In advance?

Bhakti-caitanya: I will pay in two installments. I will pay...

Prabhupada: But that...

Bhakti-caitanya: I will pay seven thousand...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: Or Prabhupada... What I was wanting... If we will make our Delhi office, from all the BBT payments we will make it from Delhi because big collection only from there, and from there we can supply books all over North India, no problem. And I have a little bit brain to expand it, and I have seen, experienced, since about six months. I don't have any help from anyone, except your blessings. So I was trying my best, and I am successful. I can... You can see the result.

Prabhupada: Yes. [bell rings] So what is that?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, I... I mean, everything sounds nice to me, and there's always... You know, everything has to be done so that nobody... People should not be sentimental.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: But since they are sentimental, we have to work in such a way that even the sentiments are not hurt. That's all I'm trying to say.

Trivikrama: But also that bill should be paid. The BBT should be paid.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, it has to be a two-way thing. You have to get books, and you have to pay for the books.

Bhakti-caitanya: That's all. Sometimes like the... Suppose I get lot of books worth of five thousand today, and there's no money. We have to sell the book. It takes a month to pay them.

Prabhupada: No, what is your month, you pay.

Bhakti-caitanya: Now I will pay that. There is no point of that.

Prabhupada: So you can pay immediately seven thousand.

Bhakti-caitanya: All right.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, I'm writing Gopala that "You should immediately send the books."

Bhakti-caitanya: I can send that right away to Gopala too.

Tamala Krsna: But he should send books in any case. That's your policy, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Supply books in any case. Don't be miserly about supplying books. And you, on your side, whenever you have money at the end of the month, you then pay the BBT.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, there will be no problem, because we have got theme for collection. Even we will...

Prabhupada: No, immediately you send in seven thousand.

Trivikrama: Seven thousand.

Bhakti-caitanya: Okay. I can make a check today, and I can do.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Tamala Krsna: You have your checkbook here?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: Right away.

Tamala Krsna: So along with my letter I'll send you check.

Prabhupada: Yes, send him the check.

Bhakti-caitanya: No problem.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: That's very nice. Now this man, Mr. Gupta, that they have contacted, Bhakti-caitanya Maharaja was telling me that he's very close man with Atal Bihari Vajpayee. So I don't know if there's any...

Prabhupada: No, we do not expect any very gorgeous help from this Atal Bihari. That is not possible, they are politicians.

Tamala Krsna: I was wondering whether you thought that when Gopala went to see Mr. Rajpa, perhaps Mr. Gupta could also accompany them. Do you think it would be profitable?

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Not possible.

Tamala Krsna: Not possible.

Trivikrama: I was also with Gopala when we saw Mr. Rajpa in [indistinct].

Prabhupada: That Surendra Kumar is going? Not to disturb them. Yes. That's all.

Bhakti-caitanya: Slowly, slowly, they will be convinced if they will see our activities.

Prabhupada: And even they are convinced of the importance of this movement...

Bhakti-caitanya: Right.

Prabhupada: ...still, they are politicians. You do not expect any wonderful thing.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, they are always speak lie. Today they are in the chair. Tomorrow they will be...

Prabhupada: Visvaso naiva kartavyah strisu raja-kulesu: "Never trust politicians and woman." That is the instruction of Canakya.

Bhakti-caitanya: Yes, you said many times.

Prabhupada: They will speak something outwardly and do something inwardly. Especially nowadays politicians, they are diplomats. But Mr. Gupta is doing personally. That's all right.

Bhakti-caitanya: I got him to engage in the service of Krsna very nicely.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is very nice.

Bhakti-caitanya: He was the first man when we have our...

Prabhupada: What we expect from Vajpayee? First thing, what we have proposed, give us this permanent residency...

Tamala Krsna: Permanent residency.

Prabhupada: Let us see how he is doing.

Tamala Krsna: That's the main thing we want.

Prabhupada: Yes. If he has good mind, he'll give it, either Mr. Gupta goes or not. But if he has got any political view, either Gupta goes or not goes, he'll not... First plan, interest, is for residency. [end]