January, 1977
Morning Walk

January 2, 1977, Bombay
Dr. Patel: She had a very religious background.
Prabhupāda: Women are generally...
Dr. Patel: They're more religious, yes. My children... My son does not eat, I told you the other day, even tomatoes. He's going to States for a fellowship, and I don't know what he'll do there.
Prabhupāda: No. If you don't like to eat tomato, who is going to force? That is not... [break]
Dr. Patel: Hindu, that is wrong nomenclature. There is no Hindu dharma. It is a..., Hindu is a way of life. Even Muslims live the same way, even Christians live the same way. The sanātana-dharma is the real word. Just use it and then everyone says. I heard it in a letter to American consul about this matter. In there I mentioned sanātana-dharma. I have said sanātana-dharma, not Hindu dharma. I have mentioned like that. Real (indistinct) is the Vedic religion.
Prabhupāda: Because the religion actually means the law given by God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion is not manufactured.
Dr. Patel: One ācārya has said, dharmāgnira sadācāra śruti smṛti (?)(indistinct). What is mentioned in the śruti and smṛti, that is dharma. Sadācāra.
Prabhupāda: Basic principle is that it is made by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now there are books, how to carry out the order. And the ultimate understanding, how to become faithful to the (indistinct). Just like good citizen means faithful to the government. Unfortunately these rascals, they do not have any idea, the supreme controller, supreme government. They say anything automatically.
Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇava is a good citizen of the government of God. That is Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is dharma. And Kṛṣṇa teaches that dharma. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Who will surrender unless he's a Vaiṣṇava?
Pālikā: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This morning you would like to take your breakfast after the program or after resting? Because I do not want to prepare the idli...
Prabhupāda: Later. All other dharmas are cheating.
Prabhupāda: This is dharma.
Dr. Patel: Sarva-dharmān means all other vocations, I would say. Dharma means whatever vocation... Is one of the interpretations. "All vocations you leave and come to Me only and be My bhakta." That is... I would... Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is great. We are small. The small business is to serve the great. That is going on everywhere.
Dr. Patel: And mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja means "You do work according to My dictate. That is My śaraṇam."
Prabhupāda: This is śaraṇam, not that you remain independent from śaraṇam. No.
Dr. Patel: That means you obey the infallible laws of God.
Prabhupāda: God says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. This is dharma.
Dr. Patel: They are thinking of psychological, sir. If you think of a particular thing, then you become merge in that. Practically your mind becomes so... That is how the researches are carried out by (indistinct). You become mad on that. You become mad on Kṛṣṇa. You get...
Prabhupāda: It is natural to serve God, to remain faithful to Him. This is natural. Artificially you are trying to be independent. This is the Māyāvāda... Still, they are trying to become God himself.
Dr. Patel: Sir, after first I met you, some previous time, I made an extensive study of both the sides of Vaiṣṇavism as well as the (indistinct). I think they are falling short of the final (indistinct). Once they say that they are in Brahman, but there is Parabrahman also. That Brahman is nothing but a jyoti of Parabrahman. That they forget.
Prabhupāda: That means knowledge.
Dr. Patel: And I think, sir, even Śaṅkarācārya has not meant that we must be short of that. He was also worshiping, was he not? He was worshiping Parabrahman.
Prabhupāda: He has given a commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning he says nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ, "Nārāyaṇa is transcendental."
Dr. Patel: But these fellows are misinterpreting later on.
Prabhupāda: The whole world is full of demons. And they are demons. Who declare himself, "I am God," he's a demon.
Dr. Patel: Only one who has actually realized Parabrahman and the, become the real (indistinct) of Brahman, he has got a right to say Brahma... Unless he becomes brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20].
Then he becomes brahma-bhūta. Otherwise he cannot become. Brahma-bhūta is the first stage. This they consider the final. I mean, that is my understanding. I don't know, I may be right or wrong. But I want to be corrected by you.
Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūta... Jīva-bhūta, everyone is thinking, "I am this body." That is jīva-bhūta. And when understands that "I'm not body, I'm within the body," that is brahma-bhūta.
Dr. Patel: That is ādya. Perpetually Brahman...
Prabhupāda: No, this is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this point. "Why you are thinking that you are one of the family members? This is bodily concept."
Dr. Patel: Nobody is your relative, but the soul can never die. This is the body. Body has no value. Lot of mosquitoes, you know?
Prabhupāda: Mosquito? Here?
Hari-śauri: There's a few.
Prabhupāda: What is this?
Hari-śauri: This is a (indistinct).
Dr. Patel: I'm not covered (indistinct) my legs. There's a lot of mosquitoes in here.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: If there's biting, (laughs) here you don't get malaria but you get elephantitis.
Prabhupāda: Maybe elephantitis.
Dr. Patel: Because the elephantitis, that's very common in the (indistinct). The mosquitoes are infected by elephantitis and they infect you. These mosquitoes are (indistinct) ...carry malaria carry this elephantitis. All these villages on the coastline, right from Ratnagiri up to Dvārakā, whole coast is infected by elephantitis. Everywhere you go you see big, big leg. In fact it is right from Bhuvaneśvara. On Bhuvaneśvara sea water these mosquitoes breed even in (indistinct). I made a special study of malaria, so I have studied all the types of mosquito, and that particular mosquito on that coast is called (indistinct). Because they came right from Sundar Island. (swamps)
Prabhupāda: Sundar island, Sundarban, Bengal.
Dr. Patel: Sundarban has gone in Pakistan side.
Prabhupāda: Still in West Bengal. Sundarban is near Calcutta, about fifty miles.
Dr. Patel: All water-logged country.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are big, big tigers, big, big snakes. That Bengal tiger is famous. That tiger, his tail sometimes ten feet.
Dr. Patel: Bengal tigers are very ferocious. They are all man-eaters. Here in Gujarat, lions are only in Gujarat in India. Those lions walk about like dogs in the jungle. They don't attack any human being. Whole of India only that is the place where lions are found.
Prabhupāda: Big lions?
Dr. Patel: Big lion. They have counted, there are not more than 300 lions now in the jungle.
Prabhupāda: Why? They were killed?
Dr. Patel: That is in, just near (indistinct), that big jungle.
Prabhupāda: Central India also there are lions.
Dr. Patel: There are no lions anywhere, sir. Lions only in Africa and India in this place. Not even South America, anywhere. This Gujarat, this particular jungle, and Africa.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Africa they have hunted down all the lions on safari.
Prabhupāda: Killing business.
Dr. Patel: They have killed them at random. There is a disease called sleeping sickness. This sleeping sickness is common in the wild game and wild animals and antelopes in Africa. That we found out. And from there a type of fly called tsetse fly, he bites them. Just like the flies bite those animals, then when you go in the jungle they bite you. When they bite you they transfer the germ from animal to you, and you get the sleeping sickness. Now the latest sleeping sickness medicine is dependable, I mean nobody can die. But to arrest this disease in Central Africa, they'll kill all the game. Still they have not been able to arrest this sleeping sickness.
Prabhupāda: This is only theory; therefore I don't believe that. Simply theory.
Dr. Patel: It's more common in the Congo, in northern Rhodesia, part of Rhodesia and Uganda.
Prabhupāda: When they pour water... (end)
Conversation with
Yogi Amrit Desai of
Kripalu Ashram (PA USA)

January 2, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: I know everything, but I did not say anything.
Yogi Amrit Desai: You knew him before?
Prabhupāda: No. When I went to America one gentleman here, Paramananda Mehra, he gave me an introductory letter. So he received me well. In the beginning I was staying in his care. But I did not say anything, but I knew everything.
Yogi Amrit Desai: I'm sure you did.
Prabhupāda: I was his guest. He was receiving nightly. Of course, I was indirectly saying him that "You are not doing nice," but what more I could do?
Yogi Amrit Desai: I have so much love for you, and I said I must come for a darśana.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Yogi Amrit Desai: I was telling to the devotees. I said that you are...
Prabhupāda: You are with Dr. Mishra?
Yogi Amrit Desai: No, I'm not. I was telling all the devotees here. I said Śrī Prabhupāda is the first man who brought bhakti in the West, where it is needed most. Because there they are so much in the head, thinking, thinking, thinking. This path of love is so profound.
Prabhupāda: Just see. If you present a real genuine thing, it will be effective.
Yogi Amrit Desai: That is why it is growing so beautifully, because it is genuine.
Prabhupāda: And it is the duty of the Indians to give them genuine thing. That is para-upakāra. Before me, all these swamis and yogis went there to cheat them.
Yogi Amrit Desai: No, they were afraid to give the truth because they were afraid they will not be accepted.
Prabhupāda: They did not know what is truth. (laughter) Not afraid. Why? If one is on the platform of truth, why he should be afraid?
Yogi Amrit Desai: Sure.
Prabhupāda: They did not know what is truth, beginning from Vivekananda.
Yogi Amrit Desai: All the way, right. See, after you came... I was there in 1960. I started teaching yoga. But after you came I became fearless to teach bhakti and chant mantras. So now we have lots of bhakti in āśrama, lots of bhakti. And I paid that respect to you because I was afraid to give them because I thought, "They are Christians. They will not like so much devotion. They will misunderstand." But you have performed a miracle. God, Kṛṣṇa, has performed miracle through you. It's just very amazing, greatest miracle on earth. I just feel so strongly about it.
Prabhupāda: It is very kind of you that you give this statement. If we give genuine thing, it will act.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. This is what I'm doing too. Everyone... We have about 180 people who live permanently in the āśrama, and they all practice celibacy. Everyone wakes up at 4:00, and they sleep by 9:00. And they don't touch even each other. They sleep different quarters. They sit even separately in sat-saṅga. Everything strict. No drugs, no alcohol, no meat, no tea, no coffee, no garlic, no onion.
Prabhupāda: Very good. Yes. We are following this. But you have got any Deity?
Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Lord Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā is our Deities. My guru is Swami Kripalu-anandi. He is in... Near Baroda he has an āśrama. He practiced his sādhana for twenty-seven years, and twelve years was complete silence. The last few years he is speaking once or twice a year because many people request.
Prabhupāda: He's not chanting?
Yogi Amrit Desai: He chants. During his silence, his chanting is allowed. Because when he says... When you say the name of the Lord, that is not called breaking the silence. So he chants.
Prabhupāda: Silence means we shall not talk nonsense. We shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is silence. Instead of wasting time, talking on this material thing, let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is positive. And the silence is negative. Stop nonsense; speak sense.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right! That is right.
Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. If one ceases his nonsense, then param, the Supreme... Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. When you have got better things, then you give up naturally the rubbish. So anything material, that is rubbish. Karma, jñāna, yoga, they're all material. Karma, jñāna, yoga. Even up to so-called yogas, they're all material.
Yogi Amrit Desai: You consider that as a material. Only bhakti-yoga is more... That's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karma... What is the difference between the karmīs and yogis? Yogis want some siddhis, and karmīs want some material profit. Both of them are in want. They are not free from want. Is it not?
Yogi Amrit Desai: No, it depends on the yogi. My guru is a yogi, but he never demonstrated any power ever.
Prabhupāda: No, no... Yogi, he wants siddhi. Yogis... Of course, nowadays yogis, they have no siddhis.
Yogi Amrit Desai: (laughs) That's right. Even they don't have that.
Prabhupāda: They simply say, "yogi." But the real yogi means they have got siddhis, aṣṭa-siddhi: aṇimā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti, īśitā, vaśitā. These are siddhis. Yogis, if they are real yogi, then I can put you into the room, lock it, and you can come out. That is yogi, not by simply showing some posture.
Yogi Amrit Desai: That's right. They're the real siddhis.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing to control the senses. But real yogis mean the first siddhi is aṇimā. Yogi...
Yogi Amrit Desai: They can become smaller than the smallest.
Prabhupāda: Smaller than the smallest. If there is little hole in the room he'll come out. Yes. Who is that yogi? That is yogi.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Not today.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is cheating. They have no siddhi.
Yogi Amrit Desai: My gurudeva, he reached nirvikalpa-samādhi seven years ago. Now he is going into divine body. The inner changes are happening, he says. And in pure body... The Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He said every five hundred years one yogi achieves that pure body. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Santa-jñānesvara, (?) They are lines who reached that spot.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Divine body? [break] ...and renewed and young again. This is what he is...
Prabhupāda: So if you become young, do you mean to say that you will not die?
Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes, because then the body will dissolve, like his guru...
Prabhupāda: The body... But you... You may get young body. Does it mean that it is guaranteed that you'll not die?
Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Is it?
Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Guaranteed?
Yogi Amrit Desai: He can reappear anytime, reconstruct his body, physically or...
Prabhupāda: Reappear any... Soul is reappeared, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So reappearing, that is natural. That is not wonderful thing. Everyone is reappearing. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Suppose you are in this dress, and after one hour you come in another dress. So you are there. The dress is changed. That is happening by nature's way. It doesn't require any yoga practice. It doesn't require. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Trivikrama: And the spiritual body? Spiritual body means...
Prabhupāda: Soul. Spiritual body is now covered with the material body. So anything material, that will not exist. So body is finished; then he has to find new body. Just like the dress is old; it is finished, you take another dress. And when you haven't got to take dress, or this material body, and you remain in your spiritual body, that is called mukti. That can be achieved only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25]. If you practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness then it is possible; otherwise not. Tyaktvā deham. Everyone has to give up because this body will be old, and one has to give it up. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma [Bg. 4.9], he doesn't accept any more material body. Then? What does he...? He's finished? No, he's not finished. Mām eti. He becomes eligible to go back home back to Godhead, and there he dances with Kṛṣṇa. That is real mukti. Muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Anyathā rūpam. Now this rūpa is not spiritual, it is material. And mukti means when he gives up this material body and no more accepts any material body, he is transferred to the spiritual world to play with Kṛṣṇa, to dance with Kṛṣṇa, to talk with Kṛṣṇa. That is real... Paramaṁ siddhi. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. [break] And so long one is the material things, he... The lowest stage is the karmīs, the little higher stage, jñānī, and little higher stage, yogi. And the highest stage? Bhakti-yogī.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Bhakti. No matter what path you follow, without bhakti it is incomplete.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot go to God...
Yogi Amrit Desai: No, without bhakti, no.
Prabhupāda: No. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Kṛṣṇa never says, "By karma, jñāna, yoga one can achieve Me." Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. So unless you take to bhakti, a little advancement it may be, but that is material.
Yogi Amrit Desai: It's not of the highest nature.
Prabhupāda: So you can take... You have taken to bhakti-yoga, but take it seriously, pure bhakti-yoga. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. [break] ...favorable, according to bhakti-yoga, then he is successful.
Trivikrama: Śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Pure bhakti. (Hindi) jñāna...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kevala-bodha-labdhaye, kliśyanti. Just to know things, if he's simply troubling, his gain is that troubling only. Śreyaḥ-sṛtiṁ bhaktim udasya kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. So jñāna... This jñāna is to understand. Just like the scientists, they are getting some knowledge, studying some features, and what do they gain more?
Yogi Amrit Desai: Just information and a memory.
Prabhupāda: They cannot give any real position. They are studying so many molecules, so many atoms, so many this, so many... They are mixing... They are... That is already going on. How it is going on? Who has set up the machine going on? That they do not know.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. They don't know the key part of it.
Prabhupāda: Neither they can set up similar arrangement. They're simply studying.
Yogi Amrit Desai: They can study what is, but they do not know how it came about.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So where is jñāna? Ajñāna.
Yogi Amrit Desai: And it can at the most increase the convenience on the material plane.
Prabhupāda: Jñāna, real jñāna, is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out. Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā. What is jñāna, that is stated. But where is jñāna? Everyone is ajñāna. General people, they're karmīs and, little more, jñānīs. But jñāna is not complete unless he knows the Supreme Lord.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Unless he has realized.
Prabhupāda: Not realized, no. Just like we are talking personally. This is...
Jagadīśa: Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam, ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucam... [Bg. 13.8].
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is ācāryopāsanam. That is required. But these yogis, jñānīs, karmīs, they have no ācārya. They are self-made. Just like Dr. Russer.(?). He's self-made. So what he will do? Now he's caught up. He's in the trap. He's not a scientific man, but he presented himself as very scientific, so now he's caught up.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. You found it right away.
Jagadīśa: There's an index.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Go on.
Jagadīśa: Sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ, indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam anahaṅkāra eva ca.
Prabhupāda: Indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam, not to indulge in sense gratification, not to dress himself as a sādhu, as a swami.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Not external.
Prabhupāda: He's servant of his senses, and he has become a swami. Just see how cheating it is.
Yogi Amrit Desai: That's the real meaning.
Prabhupāda: Swami means who is the controller of the senses.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Master of the senses.
Prabhupāda: Senses. So instead of swami, he is servant of his senses, and he is preaching as swami. These swamis go to the foreign countries. Indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam.
Yogi Amrit Desai: They have vairāgya to his senses, of the senses.
Prabhupāda: A sannyāsī... A sannyāsī means he has ceased all material desire. There is no material desire. And the concentrated material enjoyment is sex. So if one could not control his sex life, then how he is swami? He's cheater.
Yogi Amrit Desai: That is the most potent of all the external attachments.
Prabhupāda: That is the essence. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam [SB 5.5.2]. Tamo-dvāram. Viśatāṁ tamisram adānta-gobhiḥ. Adānta-gobhiḥ, by uncontrolled senses, one is going down and down to the darkest region of material existence. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. So those who are sensuous... One should not be sensuous. That is also... And if he mixes with sensuous persons, then he also going to the hell.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. One who attaches himself to that.
Prabhupāda: He's also going to the hell. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. So without ācāryopāsanam, without being under the control of ācārya, these are all bogus.
Yogi Amrit Desai: That's exactly what I believe. That's so true.
Jagadīśa: Anahaṅkāra eva ca, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9].
Prabhupāda: They are showing some magic. Just like this child was being treated. So he could not check the process of death. Neither it is possible to stop the process of death. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha... Our real unhappiness is this-janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So otherwise why there is knowledge? He does not know what is the miserable condition of life. Everyone knows that he is going to die. He has taken birth; he has become old; he has suffered diseases. Then where is the solution? In America this yoga practice is very popular, and they want some solution of the miseries. But here it is said, "Where is the solution?" Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi is there. Where is your solution? You cannot stop death. Then where is the solution? This is cheating, that "I shall make solution of your suffering." But a intelligent man will say, "Can you make a solution of my death, of my old age, of my disease, of my birth?" That is knowledge. But they are poor fellows. They have no knowledge and they cheat. That's all. Where is solution? Solution is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], it is said. Otherwise cheating.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Other is settling for the lesser, and it doesn't take you to the highest.
Prabhupāda: That means they do not know what is solution, what is the process of solution.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. Just taking care of the body doesn't take you anywhere. That's the lowest.
Prabhupāda: You may take care as carefully as possible, but it will not exist.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. No matter how much you take care of it.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Then?
Prabhupāda: Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu: completely detached from family life, anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ, not to associate with so-called society, family, community.
Yogi Amrit Desai: All detachment from everyone.
Prabhupāda: This is all material. Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. Then?
Jagadīśa: Nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu.
Prabhupāda: Nityam. One must know that "I am eternal." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. "So I must act accordingly." And so far material distress and happiness is concerned, sama-cittatvam.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Sama-cittatvam under both success and failure.
Prabhupāda: That is immaterial thing. They are superficial.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. It's so beautiful to hear that. And I know you mean it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then?
Prabhupāda: This is possible when it is added with bhakti.
Yogi Amrit Desai: With bhakti. Then only.
Prabhupāda: Mayi ca. Ca means also. Simply practicing these things will not help. Unless there is bhakti, they'll not agree.
Yogi Amrit Desai: It's not complete.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It will not agree (avail?). One may be artificially tyāgī, but if there is no bhakti he'll fall down. Just like Viśvāmitra was a great yogi, but because there was no bhakti he fell down. He had relationship with Menakā and gave birth to Śakuntalā, such a big yogi. So he fall down, must fall down in māyā, because there is no bhakti. So they have so many cases we see, fall down. Then if you fall down, then where is your bhakti, jñāna? Nothing. But bhakti does not fall down. If he's really on the bhakti stage he does not fall down. Others must fall down. Must. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Then?
Prabhupāda: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Then?
Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam. (Hindi) ...jñāna. Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā. Anything else, that is all ajñāna. Anything else.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Anything else is ajñāna.
Prabhupāda: Ajñāna. None of them.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Prema-bhakti is sac-cid-ānanda. (?)
Prabhupāda: No, tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Tattva. Tattva, what is tattva?
"One who has understood these three features of the Absolute—BhāgavataBrahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, he knows tattva." That is tattva. Yo jānāti tattvataḥ. So where is that tattva-jñāna? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. That is philosophy, when he is trying to understand the tattva. And Bhagavān says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. That is tattva. So everything is there, Bhagavad-gītā. And they are distorting the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā, explaining in their own way and cheating people. We are presenting, therefore, Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Then it is acting. So he is now in the West Coast?
Yogi Amrit Desai: Who? Yes.
Prabhupāda: What you are doing there? [break] Actually, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Asat mithyā. [break] ...asat, but we are now situated in this asat situation life after life. That is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Accepting one body after another, another, another, another, it is going on. Therefore, asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra [Cc. Madhya 22.87]. Then what is that asat? That Caitanya Mahāprabhu..., strī-saṅgī eka asādhu kṛṣṇābhakta āra. There are two asats. Two asats. Asat-saṅga-tyāga. And to give up asat association... Then the next question is: "How you will know who is asat, who is sat?" So He said, asat eka strī-saṅgī. Anyone who has association with woman, he is asat.
Yogi Amrit Desai: That is the strongest bond between the..., to the body and the soul.
Prabhupāda: He is asat. He doesn't... We say that strī-saṅgī, to associate with woman without marriage, we say, "Don't do this," but Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, either illicit or legal, it is asat.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Either married or unmarried, it is not.
Prabhupāda: It is asat. Therefore, when He was twenty-four years' age, He gave up His young..., home, wife. He became a sannyāsī, practically. And He was very, very strict to talk with woman. No woman could come before Him to offer respect. Little from far off. But His one of the personal associates, he simply desired. Immediately he was rejected, Choṭa Haridāsa.
Yogi Amrit Desai: I didn't understand. His personal associate...
Prabhupāda: He had His personal associate. His name was Choṭa Haridāsa. He looked upon one woman with lusty desires.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Oh, I see. He looked upon a woman with a lusty desire, and he allowed it...
Prabhupāda: He immediately rejected him from His association.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Really?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And He was so strict... This man, being hopeless that he'll not be able to associate with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he committed suicide.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Really?
Prabhupāda: And when He learned that he has committed suicide, He did not regret. "Yes, this is the just punishment." You see how much strictly. [break] And He said, asat saṅga. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgaḥ. He said that.
niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya
pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya
sandarśanaṁ viṣayiṇām atha yoṣitāṁ ca
hanta hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu
[Cc. Madhya 11.8]
He was very strict. So this is Vaiṣṇava behavior. Asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra, strī-saṅgī eka asādhu kṛṣṇābhakta āra... [Cc. Madhya 22.87]. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's sampradāya is very rigid.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes, very rigid.
Prabhupāda: Very, very. But if one is able to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu and receives a little mercy... He is very merciful. He is prepared to be merciful to anyone, any fallen soul. But if we take it, His mercy, if we simply follow His instructions, then our life is successful. Life is successful. Yat-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhavavatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī... Even if we are not able to take His whole mercy, a little part of His mercy, then our life...
Yogi Amrit Desai: Before I leave, can they just stand here and have darśana and then we go? Can they come in?
Prabhupāda: Who?
Yogi Amrit Desai: My sister and my brother-in-law. Those...
Prabhupāda: They are here?
Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Just darśana. So they won't take too much energy.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Yogi Amrit Desai: I'll call them.
Prabhupāda: So Govinda dāsī, you are feeling all right? Like this atmosphere? So Caitya-guru, your program, that you are going to construct temple there? [break] Aiye [break] You must accept the standard way, then you'll get siddhi, you'll get sukha and parāṁ gati. Unless you follow the standard way, na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim. So if you have interest in bhakti-yoga, then you practice the bhakti-yoga properly. That will make you successful. Otherwise, teṣām asau kleśala eva śiṣyate, simply whatever labor you are doing, that is your profit and no other profit. Kleśala eva. Nānyad yathā sthūla-tuṣāvaghātinām. The example is tuṣa. Tuṣa you know? The skin of rice? Husk. Yes. So if there is paddy, if you beat it, you'll get rice. But if you beat on the husk, then...
Yogi Amrit Desai: You won't get anything.
Prabhupāda: But your gain is only that labor. So similarly, if you don't know what is the substance, you go on laboring, that laboring is your only achievement and nothing else.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Such a beautiful example. If you keep on beating the husk...
Prabhupāda: What you'll get?
Yogi Amrit Desai: The labor you get.
Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam.
Śrama eva hi kevalam. What is the profit? (Hindi) Sewer. Pigs. These are the natural examples. (Hindi) Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. Just purify your existence, that tapasya. Then you'll get... Yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam. Ramante yoginaḥ anante [Cc. Madhya 9.29]. That is real yogic perfection. Satyānande cid-ātmani. (Hindi) So if you have taken the bhakti-yoga system, do it nicely. You'll get success very quickly. Otherwise, śrama eva hi kevalam. So why should we waste our time, simply satisfied with the labor?
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (guests leave) This is Japanese?
Trivikrama: Chinese. I'm in China now.
Prabhupāda: In China proper?
Trivikrama: No, no. But that is from China proper.
Prabhupāda: So what is the news?
Trivikrama: We have distributed about 2,500 now of Chinese Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Out of five thousand.
Trivikrama: Yes. But also now, coming, I found out the Hong Kong temple has been closed.
Prabhupāda: Closed? Maybe. What...?
Trivikrama: Because we are thinking of shifting to Hong Kong because our program mainly is in offices, you know. We go in office, and we dress with a suit and tie. So they're thinking that we're businessmen coming to buy something from them. So they treat us very nicely, "Oh, sit down. How do you do, Mr. Brown?" offer some tea or something. Then we immediately open up briefcase and present one of your Bhagavad-gītās. Then we preach a little bit. We tell them that "We've come here. This is the first time in Chinese language, a very wonderful book. So many men have recommended." And then they appreciate a little bit. Then we say, "If you could help some little donation," and they give us. But these are mostly high-class men in offices, you know. So now we're kind of depleted, because ordinary men don't speak English. So we're going to Hong Kong, but there's no temple there. We'll have to live in hotels.
Prabhupāda: And where is that boy gone that was in Hong Kong?
Trivikrama: He went to New York.
Prabhupāda: He is a Chinese man.
Trivikrama: He went also. Well, the president was Sevānanda, an American boy, his wife... It's a difficult part of the world, Prabhupāda. No one likes it.
Prabhupāda: Hong Kong.
Trivikrama: People don't take. Even in Taiwan, now we are Republic of China, but we had a nice center, but people just aren't interested very much.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You got a copy, eh, Easy Journey to Other Planets?
Prabhupāda: It is very attractive.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You like it? We only did ten thousand each, but I think we'll sell it out in Kumbhamela. And if we have these two pandals in Ludhiana and Mathurā...
Prabhupāda: So why don't you order more?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right now I don't have much money, so I'm going slow. But when we sell, we'll get the money back, print more.
Prabhupāda: No, I can give you some loan.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We will do that. We may need a small loan because... Also the printer came to see me. I told him to bring down the Bengali Gītār Gān price, and I'll think we'll print only one lakh here because his quality is much better than a small letter press in Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: So if you regularly do businesslike, I can give you loan.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We may need a small loan, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'm not asking till it becomes...
Prabhupāda: No. For printing books I'll give you loan.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually the BBT's turnover now is around four lakhs. A year ago we opened this BBT account with only two thousand rupees in the bank. Now it's gone to four lakhs.
Prabhupāda: Books which are sellable, you can print in quantity. That will be cheaper. These books I think will be...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We're going to sell this for one rupee, fifty paisa.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Indian: Yes. Prabhupāda, I am taking two books. (mixed Hindi and English)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we purposely did not have a spine here. We wanted to keep the cost low. You know you cannot get everything. If you want to keep the cost low, then you have to make some small sacrifice.
Prabhupāda: (yawns) We want first quality.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But for Hindi books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we find pricing is also very important. Because in Hindi and Bengali books, they cannot sell for more than a rupee or rupee, fifty. In English books...
Prabhupāda: So at what price you are selling?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is costing us seventy-eight paisa. So BBT will sell it to the temples for eighty paisa, and the temples are free to sell it for one, one-fifty. So we're charging reasonable price, so we can go after quantity.
Prabhupāda: No, if it can be sold at two rupees, you spend little more. Yes.
Indian: That's what I said.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I selected the most popular pictures for covers because people buy in India on the basis of covers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nicely selected. Both pictures are very nice.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the three books, I think, the pictures have come out quite nice.
Prabhupāda: There are others also?
Indian: I went to the printing press, and I asked him "Why don't you print like the other books you have, Easy Journey to Other Planets?" So he said that "We have done little mistake, and the next printing it will be better."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not a mistake. We perfectly agreed. You told me so, that (Hindi).
Prabhupāda: What will be price for one lakh?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Of this? I think it will go around a velo(?), because the real book cost seventy-eight paisa; paper is about forty paisa. So paper, whether you buy one or one lakh, it's the same. Printing is about thirty-eight paisa. And out of thirty-eight paisa, plate-making and all will come to about ten paisa.
Prabhupāda: Plate is already made.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's what I'm saying. No, I'm just saying by increased run how much can you save? So I imagine you save about three paisa, four paisa more per book. It's not enough to warrant extra investment. I have analyzed the difference between doing large print runs India and America. In America and Europe labor is very expensive. So to them, to stop the machine in between and start again, it's very expensive, so it makes a lot of difference. But in India labor is cheap. So for them to stop the machine in between and then start again, it's not so expensive. So the ceiling is not as great as the extra investment you have to put in. Therefore I'm not doing large run except where it's absolutely necessary.
Prabhupāda: No. Items which are selling, that we can do because...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Like Bhagavad-gītā we did one lakh.
Prabhupāda: ...to wait means that waste of time.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But Bhagavad-gītā, we're doing one lakh copies now, and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is our first experiment with the paper manufacturer here. He's making paper for us exactly like American, especially for us. So I've given Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Part Two. We are printing ten thousand. Four thousand we'll print on this government paper, softbound, for cheap distribution, and six thousand on expensive American paper, hardbound, for export, because we will be able to export it for a dollar forty, which is two dollars below what Los Angeles charges. Substantial... So as an experiment, I only wanted to... I've ordered paper for six thousand expensive hardbound. Let's see how the paper is. If it's good, then we'll use the same paper for one lakh. Before taking a risk on one lakh, I wanted to experiment on a smaller run.
Trivikrama: So I'm also thinking about printing again. Now we have just enough...
Prabhupāda: We can print here.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have very good arrangement.
Prabhupāda: At what price you are printing?
Trivikrama: Pretty cheap.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hong Kong is very expensive.
Prabhupāda: No no, let him say.
Trivikrama: Well, you know the book we have, six chapters.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Trivikrama: It costs seventy-five cents, U.S...
Prabhupāda: Seventy-five cents. So multiply it by six.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It comes to about six rupees.
Prabhupāda: It's costly. I think here it must be cheaper.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There're very few... How many color illustrations in it?
Prabhupāda: Just take quotation. If you can, you print here.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And if it is for export, it will be even cheaper.
Prabhupāda: We can take quotation.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. How many color plates do you have? Hm, 298, 300. Well, we can take a quotation and see.
Prabhupāda: Here it must be cheaper.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Have you seen the Gītās we printed in India? Here are our samples. They're very good. Actually, I mean I'm not trying to be rude... Because I was negotiating the prices for the Chinese Gītā when... You know that time. Sevānanda was telling me all the prices of the worst of Hong Kong for that time. It was above a dollar.
Trivikrama: Yeah, I know, but that was in Hong Kong. We got it printed in Taiwan for cheaper.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Because he sent me for dollar forty, dollar thirty. I have the prices with me.
Trivikrama: And this was... That was also for the corrections. No, the price is about seventy-five cents.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Only thing I've told Jayatīrtha and Bali-mardana Prabhus to do is to open a letter of credit now because we are going to be exporting these Gītās at export price. And the bank is giving our printer a loan of ten lakhs. So he has to show the bank a letter of credit, so I hope they send it, and then this will start rolling. End of February is our first shipment. We're going to ship ten thousand Gītās.
Prabhupāda: Letter of credit you can get.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I hope they give it.
Prabhupāda: Bank of America will give.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break]
Prabhupāda: (referring to Kumbhamela?) When I was in midst of the crowd, the crowd was so big that I was afraid: "If there is any rush, this child will be finished." Because if there is little rush, you cannot go back; you cannot go forward.
Hari-śauri: Yes, if you go in a crowd.
Prabhupāda: It is very dangerous. And if there is some force, you become suffocated. So still, people were going slowly. By grace of Kṛṣṇa nothing happened. But same thing happened later years when Jawaharlal Nehru was present. So many people crashed and fallen in the river Yamunā and died.
Hari-śauri: Drowned in the river.
Prabhupāda: The rush came, and there was no protection.
Hari-śauri: We'll have to be very careful if we go to bathe in the river.
Prabhupāda: No, now they make arrangement, section by bamboo, so the rush may not be very pressurable. Section by section. So section they go. Now the arrangement is better. But formerly the arrangement was not... It was open, and people come. As soon as there is little rush, pushing, there is great danger.
Hari-śauri: (laughs) Sounds like an auspicious place to die, though.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So I remember that day. I was thinking that "Such a big rush, forty million." Forty million, er four million.
Hari-śauri: Four million.
Prabhupāda: And if there is little push, then this poor child
will be finished. We were going very slow, and we did not know. I like... I remember that, that "I have come in a very dangerous position." Perhaps 1928, or about fifty years ago.
Hari-śauri: The reason for the Mela is because there was some drops of nectar from the...
Prabhupāda: It is actually a religious conference. All the different groups, they gather in that holy place, and they propagate their philosophy, discussion, like that. India is country of religion. They know how spiritual life more important than this material life. That is India. Now they are diverting their attention to the material; otherwise whole India, they are for spiritual life. They don't care for material ... This material life is brought from Western countries, these railways, these..., so many things, bridges and so on, so on.
Hari-śauri: Factories.
Prabhupāda: Factories and industry and export and import and then slaughterhouse, drinking, prostitute—these are all British contribution. In India, before that, they did not know, although there was Muhammadan kingdom. Muhammadans were happy as ruler. They did not... They thought that "Let them execute their own religion, and let us our religion." That was the relation. And Hindus, they took it that "Somebody must be government..." [break] ...policy that "If the Indians remain as Indian, it will be impossible to govern. Give them education and condemn everything Indian." And they engaged their own men, engaged our men, and gradually they developed the industry. Naturally people became very much astonished: "Oh, they are making such a nice bridge. We have now laid down the railway. We have got facilities, so on, so on..." They gave them, for developing these enterprises, a little knowledge in English, ABCD, they would get good job. In this way they established. Money and export, import... This business enterprise and industry, these..., all these things, were introduced. There was not a single factory before British days. Industry idea is completely Western. And tea garden.
Girirāja: I know Mr. Bajoria in Calcutta, he told me that in the beginning the Indians would not purchase tea because they considered it was sinful, and the British had to make a big propaganda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, tea sets(?) committee. All the tea gardeners, all, they were mostly Britishers. They paid money for maintaining a department, tea sets(?) committee, and their only business was to make propaganda village to village how tea becomes popular. Similarly, drinking, meat-eating... And it became a fashion among the richer class to keep prostitutes, go to the garden weekend with prostitutes and wine, freely use them, intoxicated. It was a prestigious position to keep a prostitute. A rich man having a garden and one prostitute, they were... Anything in demand... I have seen it. Now I think, "How things are going on, that...?" You have seen that Mullik's house?
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Thakur Mullik, Rādhārāṇī. So in their festival some dancing girl would come, vaibi.(?) That was aristocratic, to call a prostitute and dance. So at that time we were children, five, six, seven years old. So persons who were of our father's age, they would sit down round the prostitute exactly like the street dogs surround one female dog, exactly. They had no shame even. This was aristocratic. And talking all nonsense, and if the prostitute smiles, they become very much obliged. She is (laughter) smiling. And amongst our mother's friends, they were talking, "My husband has kept that prostitute." And another lady... We were at that time boys, three, four years, but I remember all these things. Another lady, "My husband has kept that..."
Girirāja: They were proud.
Prabhupāda: In our childhood I saw. To go weekend to the garden and... Generally they go with family, and others, they go with prostitute. With prostitute they have got freedom to handle. The higher... And not only that, during marriage ceremony, high circle marriage ceremony, they would participate in drinking, even men and women. Otherwise, in India, woman drinking or taking meat is a horrible crime. And what to speak of smoking? That is most shameless. That was aristocratic, drinking and eating meat... The Bengali, they were the richer section because others, they were foreigners. They came to Calcutta and earned money. And the Bengalis, they had their aristocratic families, zamindaries, everything in their occupation. So Bengalis were richer section in Calcutta, and..., four, five big, big families. And now they are finished on account of this aristocracy. So one gentleman, he was Harendranatha Singh, very rich man, one of the richest men of Calcutta. He lost all his estate simply by this extravagance. Every evening his house is full with guests every evening, for... What is called? That table?
Girirāja: Billiards?
Prabhupāda: Billiard-playing or some exhibition of singing, and hundreds of men will gather. And they were feasting, first-class food. In this way spending, spending, spending... And then prostitute, aristocracy. In this way one property and one property lost, everything. At last I saw him going by rickshaw. One day it was raining, and I saw that he was sitting in a rickshaw, and no friend asked him that, "Haren Babu, why you are...? You come to my car," so many. And he was friendly to so many zamindars, kings, and very intimate with... But they lost of everything, and nobody cares. His sons, they are of our age. I do not know whether living or not. But most probably they are not living. They became professional singers, coming of such aristocratic father. His father, that Mr. R. N. Singh, was a very good singer. That also was another aristocratic that aristocrat family—art, some art: painter, singer, poets. Just like Rabindranath Tagore. They became famous as artist. Avanindranatha Thakur, he became famous as artist, and Rabindranath Tagore became... They also followed the aristocratic family, Calcutta. Similarly, this R. N. Singh became a singer. Because they are rich men, they have nothing to do, so... And nobody instructed them how to become saintly person. Simply debauchery and... [break] On the whole the whole human civilization is..., and all the directors, they are not giving chance to know the value of life and how to conduct life. It is the first time, that we are giving the real idea of life. Otherwise whole world is in darkness. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatim. They do not know what is the end of life. Adānta... Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato . Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Vyāsadeva's real contribution... Ajānataḥ, lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām [SB 1.7.6]. He has given the right direction. And they are not taking advantage of it. If they come to sense some day, they'll read all these books, and they will come to know how to live life. That is our contribution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The whole world plunged into darkness. They do not know what is life and what is the aim of life. That's a fact. Periodically, they manufacture some ideas, and people will follow, and then it is failure, and again another revolution. They are..., the Russian philosophy, that periodically revolution required. That is also to some extent. But why revolution? Take the standard. They do not know what is the standard.
Hari-śauri: That means they're always imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Imperfect, surely. Let us do something about it.
Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
Room Conversation

January 2, 1977, Bombay
Hari-śauri: I think he's rather keen on working in Southeast Asia still.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He spoke to me this morning. He has to go back for some time to Southeast Asia, but he's willing to stay in India and travel between centers. He's a very nice sannyāsī, and I think it would be a very good idea.
Prabhupāda: Call him.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is giving a class right now, but he cannot go... He told me that he has to go to Southeast Asia first because he has books and everything.
Hari-śauri: He has two men there still. There's two men there still, and they have about two and a half thousand books still to distribute. He said one of the reasons he wanted to come was cause there's no center... (end)
Room Conversation

January 2, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: ...that a high-court judge and he does not know what is God. How misfortunate he is. And he's speaking of God, "Surrender," all theoretical. They do not know what is surrender. If I say anybody that "Go to Dr. Patel and surrender unto him, and whatever he'll prescribe, you take it," but if he does not know what is Dr. Patel, then where he'll go and what to surrender? This is their position. They speak big, big words but do not know where to go. It is not? What do you think?
Dr. Patel: They do not believe in what you say...
Prabhupāda: Huh? That is the truth. Actually they do not know, and they cheat others, speaking about God. That is the difficulty. All rascals are doing that. And if I say, "All rascals," it is little harsh, but it has to be said. They do not know what is God, and they speak of God. Let them say frankly that "I do not know what is God." That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. If they are sincere, then after many, many births... Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta... [Bg. 12.5]. They do not know, and they will not accept ācāryopāsanam. The ācārya says, Rāmānujācārya says, Madhvācārya says, big, big ācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu... They will not believe them. They will speculate in their nonsense speculation. This is the difficulty. Without going to the ācārya... Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is the Vedic process, how one can know. But they will speculate. Ciraṁ vicinvan. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayaṁ jānāti tattvam... Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayam, leśānugṛhīta eva hi jānāti tattvaṁ na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan [SB 10.14.29]. One who has little mercy of God upon him, he can understand, but others, they can speculate for many, many births; still, they'll never be able. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayaṁ leśānugṛhīta jānāti tattvam. Leśānugṛhīta eva hi. Leśa. One cannot know God full. That is not possible because you are limited; He is unlimited. Still, if one has learned, at least if one has accepted, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. Bas," his knowledge is perfect. If he simply believes only that "Here is God," he can understand. They don't believe that Kṛṣṇa is God. "Eh... He may be very powerful...," so on. Kṛṣṇa says aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. These rascals will not believe. "So what is there for me?" Mūḍho nābhijānāti. If they remain persistently mūḍhas, who can make them understand? Very difficult. (Hindi) Gandhi did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. Huh?
Dr. Patel: I don't know that. I think he...
Prabhupāda: You should know. You have read Gandhi's book.
Dr. Patel: He practiced Vaiṣṇavism. That is what my wife said. Always, daily, to worship.
Prabhupāda: This is not... I do not know what is Gandhi's book, his Gītā lecture. Why don't you purchase them? Explain.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll get you some.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He mentioned that, that "My Kṛṣṇa is different imagination. My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." That is his position. He imagines. He has... (Hindi) "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa..." This is... How he can believe Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is preaching violence, and he's trying to draw nonviolence. The people will challenge, but he makes his own commentation, his own imagination. He said, "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." This is his word. And actually... He is the student of Bhagavad-gītā and in his āśrama there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. He does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. But believe or not believe, he was reading Bhagavad-gītā, had respect. That will give him some profit, there is no doubt. [break] Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam. Everything is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. I speak, therefore, to my disciples that "You simply repeat like parrot Bhagavad-gītā and follow by your life. Don't try to become very big scholar, do interpretation. Remain foolish and believe in Kṛṣṇa. Then life is perfect." And actually that is happening. They never tried to eschew and... What is called, the English word? Draw out some meaning. Eschew or something?
Jagadīśa: Eschew is the right word.
Prabhupāda: They do, everyone. The Tilak has done like that, Gandhi has done like that, Vinod Bhave is doing that. Dr. Radhakrishna has done like that, Vivekananda has done, Aurobindo has done—everyone. Nobody would take directly, that "Here is God." What do you think? They have taken directly? Do they believe?
Dr. Patel: They believe in God.
Prabhupāda: No, believe in God, that is everyone doing. So what is their special credit? Why do they touch Bhagavad-gītā and say, "My imagination of God is different"? How cheating it is. If your imagination of God is different, why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā and declare yourself that "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā. My life is also for Gītā?"
Dr. Patel: Even when Tilak... Tilak says he follows Bhagavad-gītā always.
Prabhupāda: Everyone says that. But nobody says...
Dr. Patel: A part of it, not the whole thing.
Prabhupāda: Nobody says that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." That is their fault.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can bring the car down at ten o'clock.
Prabhupāda: Nobody says, "Here is God." That is, perhaps... We Vaiṣṇavas say; I am preaching. Perhaps I am the first preacher to the world, that "Here is God."
Dr. Patel: Some of these great Vaiṣṇava ācāryas were doing interpretation of Bhagavad-gītā...
Prabhupāda: The who is ācārya except the Vaiṣṇava ācārya? All loafer class. All loafer class. They're not ācāryas. Except these Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, who is ācārya? They're not ācāryas. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān [SB 11.17.27].
Dr. Patel: I read your Bhagavad-gītā, and after that, I read Rāmānuja's. They more or less the same...
Prabhupāda: Same thing. There is no difference between the ācāryas. Then how he becomes ācārya if there is difference of opinion? They cannot be ācārya. (end)
Room Conversation

January 3, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: Why should be checked? This is the point.
Girirāja: I don't think that the court will decide against us.
Prabhupāda: If they decide that... There are many other court judgments in our favor. Then we must adopt civil disobedience. There is no other, second way. "Capriciously you cannot impose anything against the law, against the judgment. If you do, then we shall also disobey." That should be the last resolve.
Hari-śauri: I remember when we were first beginning in Melbourne we were harassed very tremendously by the Council.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that.
Hari-śauri: And they were putting us in jail and everything. And actually every court decision was against us too. But somehow or another, we just went out on saṅkīrtana, every day distributing. We were getting booked, then fined. Then we wouldn't pay the fines, so they would come and they would raid the temple at two o'clock in the morning and try and take us away to jail. And... It went on for months. And then in the end there was so much publicity about it... When we went to jail we were fasting. So there was so much publicity that the Council became very embarrassed that they couldn't get rid of these boys and girls. They became so embarrassed that they stopped their harassment, and we carried on with our saṅkīrtana activities. So actually, if we just determine just to stick with it, then there's nothing they can do. What can they do to us unless they kill us? I don't think they can do that.
Prabhupāda: So your wife came... [break] This is Indian attitude. They do not care for the modern, civilized way of life, wasting time reading some nonsense book or going to the bars, the cinema, talking unnecessarily. They do not like. Those who are old style, they do not.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I know many women who are very good cooks, I have tasted...
Prabhupāda: They have no time to waste time in that way. They must be inclined that "I must prepare something nice so that my husband, my children or my, all friends will be very pleased." That is their policy. I wanted that all our girls, they should be expert. And in America they are doing that. They should learn the art of cooking and prepare very nice foodstuffs, daily change of menu. And the children should be so trained up that no more birth. And that is life. They can produce hundreds of children, it doesn't matter, but must be responsible that "The children should be saved. This is the last birth, no more birth. I'll train the child in such a way that next life he's going to Kṛṣṇa, back to home, back to Godhead." That is parent's duty. Otherwise they should not become parent. That is contraceptive: "I am not fit to train my children in that way, so I shall not produce cats and dogs." This is life. Why shall I produce cats and dogs? And Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was gṛhastha, he produced Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. That is one... So in this way, if there is ideal institution, ideal mode of living, it is happy; everything is all right. That is gṛhastha. Produce Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "If I can produce kṛṣṇa-bhakta as children, then I'm prepared to marry and produce hundreds of children." And if we cannot, then we shall not produce even one children. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī in their previous life. What was the name? Their determination is "If we can get a child like God, then we shall produce. Otherwise we go on, tapasya. And when Kṛṣṇa came, "What do you want?" "I want You." "Who is like Me? I shall appear. I shall appear." Anyway, we have got such huge establishment. Utilize it very properly everywhere. Another thing, that in Vṛndāvana... You remember the corner land, parikrama, last time? That is available by acquirement.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The corner land to the left? Left of Gurukula? Or...
Prabhupāda: No Gurukula... When we go to the chuni,(?) in front of...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ha, ha, ha. In that direction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is agricultural land.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right opposite...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Where that gate is.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right before the gate. That is... I was under the impression that belonged to some Christian man.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is first. After crossing the road, the corner.
Hari-śauri: Where the parikrama path is.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is available for...?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually that would be good if we get that. It's right next to our temple.
Prabhupāda: So why not try for that? You can get it, I am sure.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'm going to Vṛndāvana in ten days.
Prabhupāda: So if we can get that land, then we can divert our sewer in the land and utilize it for nice agricultural purposes. So instead of spending lakh of rupees for municipality, why not acquire that land?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Acquire or buy? Acquire.
Prabhupāda: Acquire means you have to pay, but government...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but acquire usually takes a long time.
Prabhupāda: Not long time. They'll give us, because it is lying vacant.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On the sewage problem in Vṛndāvana, we'll have to make, do something quickly because even the Gurukula will not be able to open till we can...
Prabhupāda: So you can do it immediately. But go on, purchase. It is lying vacant.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's a very good idea. But we'll still have to put a pipe underground coming out.
Prabhupāda: That is not much, a few you, few yards only. And then introduce it and distribute that water, the whole land, and you will get good agricultural produce, very good. You can have very good business.
Hari-śauri: That can be used for agriculture?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This water is very valuable for agricultural purpose. Nature has made in such a way. Aiye. All rejected water, you can utilize for agriculture.
Hari-śauri: I think in the West they have a law that says you can't use human sewage.
Prabhupāda: Kick out the West. We are doing here, in India. The municipality is doing that also in Vṛndāvana. Everywhere it is. In Calcutta there is called dhāpāra māṭha. Dhāpāra māṭha, formerly, anything produced in dhāpāra māṭha, that was not used for Deity. The superstition that "These vegetables are grown in filthy water, nasty..." But the vegetables were-cauliflower so big, so big. Everything, very luxuriantly, very tasteful and solid and big... Dhāpāra māṭhera (Bengali). They used to take. In Bengal, generally, the land is very fertile to produce vegetables. But this, the more the filthy things of the city were thrown there, and the cultivator used to grow very nice... That is utilization of this filthy water where there was sewer ditches formerly. In the village they diverted from the water in the field, and they got good crops. Generally they pass stool in the field. The cow's, cow dung and man's stool and everyone's stool, they are wrapped gathered together in the rainy season. It became fertile. (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will try for the land.
Prabhupāda: Immediately. That is... That will be proper utilization. And in the court, unless they arrange for this dirty water out, why shall I pay tax? We shall stick to this position.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are sticking to it. The only harm to us is our Gurukula is going to get delayed now, the opening.
Prabhupāda: But in the meantime you...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And also we are running out of time because we can't let water accumulate the way it is.
Prabhupāda: So why you can't? We have purchased that land. They have to...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is... We'll try for that now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means... We have purchased that land. By force you can drive out? We are trying for that. Go to the court: "We have regularly purchased that land. What can be done? The municipality is not doing anything." We have to fight like that.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we are fighting.
Prabhupāda: Why you should be afraid?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. I mean the water... We're having all the trouble with the man in the back.
Prabhupāda: That I am speaking, that he's trouble. Why he should be giving us trouble? We purchased it. Take land; take money. And we have to purchase the land for this purpose. We are doing other arrangement; that is our mercy. But even that land... The municipality is obliged. Otherwise we can throw the water on the street. That is municipal's duty. Otherwise why shall I pay tax? We shall do everything, we shall pay tax, and we shall suffer? What is this?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not paying tax. We are fighting it in the court.
Prabhupāda: So in this way we have to fight. We should not be afraid for these rascals. Why you should be afraid? If they take to guṇḍā-ism, we shall engage fifty guṇḍās. "Come on. Let us see." We have to maintain that spirit. Anaye yei kare prabhu anaye yei sahe.(?) The Rabindranath Tagore's one poetry: "One who does wrong and suffers wrong, he is wrong." One should not do anything wrong; one should not suffer anything wrong. That is human. If somebody does harm to me, wrong to me, I cannot suffer it. I shall not do any harm to anyone. That's all right. But if you want to give me suffering, I must fight you. Why shall I suffer it? That is kṣatriya spirit. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam. "If you are challenging, 'All right, come on,' I accept this challenge." We have to do like that. Now, this bāniyā spirit... Our Bhagatji, he purchased that land, and he's afraid of him. What is this? Bāniyā spirit. But you are kṣatriya.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has to... I'm not there all the time. They come to his house to...
Prabhupāda: No, you argue with weapon. Beat them. We shall see. Go to the police that "This is nonsense."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we've done that.
Prabhupāda: So how is that?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: At the present moment he's okay; he's quiet.
Prabhupāda: No, we should beat them. If somebody, atatayi...(?) You unnecessarily attack me; I must first kill you. That is my duty. Just like you have done here, Setterji. "I'll bring my revolver." So that is argumentum baculum. Here they wanted to put us into trouble, and he was in great trouble. So he came, he stood: "All right, come on. We shall fight. Bring my revolver." He did that. So we have to do like that. Why shall I tolerate unnecessary injustice. Take that spirit. And in meantime apply. That is the solution. Why shall I spend for them? And unless they arrange for the sewer lines, we're not going to pay tax.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's our position.
Prabhupāda: Let us go on, one court after another, one court after... If there is fight, we must be prepared to fight. (Hindi) If required, take Setterji. He'll help.
Setterji: Girirāja.
Girirāja: He's very heroic. He was very heroic.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is kṣatriya. (Hindi) You take him.
Setterji: In the Pakistan time, I fight forty, fifty men.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is kṣatriya spirit. If you want to fight...
Setterji: Yes, always.
Prabhupāda: You killed?
Setterji: Yes! So many times.
Prabhupāda: So you have got experience. Huh?
Setterji: Sometimes I have walked on the dead body.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So many dead bodies.
Setterji: I have seen about four men at the Pathan border, and the... One, this Korabhari, this ṭāṅgā, Victoria,(?) came with six Muslims. And they challenged us. Very... "We will kill you." We said, "Yes, come. You kill us; we will kill you. We fight." We were ready at that time because revolver was there and the Kurari Kundasa was there. One, my friend, he was from Gujawala(?). He showed this Kundasa, and his head cut out, and he was running...
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Still running?
Setterji: Running! In Mahābhārata(?) I was heard that body was running. But actually I have seen at that time. Head was cut and the body was running.
Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughter) And then he fell down.
Setterji: Then he fell down. And of that, the other men went.
Prabhupāda: That, how he was running with his mind, just see.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With his mind.
Hari-śauri: The mind is in the heart.
Setterji: And we have saved all the fellows because...
Prabhupāda: That, these rascals, they do not know...
Setterji: Because if they first, they put us, then our men will do it. So we do first.
Prabhupāda: Killing.
Setterji: Yes. And the one man get out from the ṭāṅgā, who first cut out his head. Then... And all the others ran out. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Yes. (Hindi) Actually. It was also very disastrous.
Setterji: To fight... When fight is there, then...
Prabhupāda: That is also Kṛṣṇa conscious. You see how many demons are killed by Kṛṣṇa.
Setterji: "Come on." You challenge. You see? I've declared. If they challenge us I am ready, "Come on." At the temple I challenged, "Come on! And you are 150. We don't be afraid."
Prabhupāda: So... (Hindi) You have lost your kṣatriya spirit.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Having Setterji with us... When he has (?) relax for few days, rest for few days.
Prabhupāda: Huh? If you have lost your kṣatriya spirit, then take him.
Setterji: When he came with that barrister to give you to notice... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)... Mantrer(?) was so against, that "We must stop this." Yes. I heard from that doctor that he was insulted by Seti, "Either Seti should go..." Like that, he has repeated me. He gave me hint that Seti... (Hindi) And you know that. The doctor, what is that doctor? He suggested. He's Mantrer's(?) man. Yes. Yes.
Setterji: He was also play the game in the land, that...
Prabhupāda: He gave hint that "Give Mantrer two lakhs of rupees." Yes. He was canvasser on behalf of Mantrer. He wanted two lakhs.
Setterji: Which we'll not give you a single paisa. We will fight to you. "Come on."
Prabhupāda: So I think you make this point. But best thing is that if you can acquire that land, that is the best solution. We can utilize that land?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, for agriculture. That's very good.
Prabhupāda: It is just in the corner.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can have a small gośālā there also.
Prabhupāda: Anything we can do.
Setterji: Gurujī, one night at the Pakistan front we stay in one place, and forty, fifty men came there, Kuraris and Kundasas. And another fellow which was with me, he was asked to be one of them. So when they came we recognized and we were ready with the revolvers and... The men came and they want to kill us, and we shoot them, five men dead, that time, and the rest ran away. And I took my child, this Brijmohan. He was five days old only. And I took my wife on the back...
Prabhupāda: Five days?
Setterji: Five days. And I took my wife on the back and child in my hand, and the way was so difficult, and the darkness. And then we... Six miles...
Prabhupāda: What about your other children and daughters?
Setterji: They were also with us.
Prabhupāda: But they were grown up.
Setterji: My father took my..., that child who was one year old.
Prabhupāda: Oh, father, mother, everyone, whole family. Then how trial they had.
Setterji: Six miles from there, and then we got a...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of these Punjabis had to go through this. During the Partition a lot of Punjabis had to face the fight and killing them off.
Prabhupāda: No, in Bengal also there was fight.
Setterji: Huh? First Bengal? Was in Punjab.(?)
Prabhupāda: Noakali there was great fight.
Setterji: After this war I cannot slept six months perfectly.
Prabhupāda: Mind was so disturbed.
Setterji: Because these, that scenes, came always...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In vision.
Setterji: ...in dreams that "We were fighting; we were killing, they are killing; we are killing."
Prabhupāda: Just see how much struggle.
Setterji: Sometimes we wake up fighting, fighting.
Prabhupāda: I had such experience. I had some experience in my childhood in 1911. I was thirteen years old. There was a riot. So our house was there in Mahātmā Gandhi Road, and all sides Muhammadans. We are simply... The Mulliks and our house are simply some respectable men. Otherwise it was surrounded (surrendered?) by... That is called Kwalabala and Bastik, all Muhammadans, backside fully Muhammadans. So the riot was there, and I went to play. There is a square, Marker(?) Square. So I did not know the riot has taken place. I was coming home. So one of my class friends said that "You do not go to your house. That side is rioting now." So because we are in the Muhammadan quarter, this fighting between two parties, that was going on. It is usual. So I thought it may be like that, that two guṇḍās are fighting. I have seen. One guṇḍā is stabbing the other guṇḍā. I have seen. And they are pickpockets. When you are passing they would... I have seen, he is pickpocketing. (laughter) And they were our neighbor men. So I thought "It must be like that. This is going on." But when I came the crossing of Mahatma Gandhi... At that time Harrison Road it was. Harrison Road and Holi..., Holiday, Halliday Street, yes. So one shop was being plundered. Putamat putamat putamat..." So I was child, a boy. I became... "What is this happening?" In the meantime all, my father, mother, members: "Oh, the child has not come." They became so mad, they came out of home expecting, "Wherefrom the child will come?" So what could I do? When I saw, then I began to run towards our house, and one Muhammadan, he wanted to kill me. He took his lāṭhi and actually... But I passed through some way or other. I was saved. So as soon as I came before our gate they got their life. So without speaking anything I went to the bedroom, and it was in the month of... It is winter. So I... Without saying anything I laid down, wrapping myself with quilt. So that time I was rising: "Is it ended? The riot is ended?" I was asking. I remember. So I would have been killed in that riot. So I have got experience of this riot. That is the first riot in Calcutta, in 1911.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't had any such experience.
Setterji: I was passing on my car after Pakistan from Laul(?) and they put bomb, hand grenade, and the back glass broken, but we...
Prabhupāda: Saved. Kṛṣṇa saved. Unless Kṛṣṇa saves, who can? So I had the experience of riot in Calcutta in my childhood.
Setterji: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: At any moment.
Setterji: "Who are afraid from death? Come on!" challenging... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Soldiers, they forget that "We have to die." They fight for... That is another madness. In Hindi it is called kunchariya.(?)
Setterji: Kunchariya. (Hindi) That is... Ah.
Prabhupāda: Soldiers they do that. It is unnaturally he becomes. They become mad after killing. (Hindi) ...kṣatriya spirit. They must be trained up kṣatriyas. If he is bāniyā, he cannot do it.
Setterji: (Hindi) ...who have challenged us. So "Come on."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) So you are real husband. You gave protection to your wife.
Indian lady: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation for few sentences)
Prabhupāda: Can you make one cāpāṭi?
Hari-śauri: I should make it, or Pālikā or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Pālikā. [break] ...business, that requires so many other things. But if you take to agriculture you can do it immediately. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. That... We are going to do that. Kṛṣi... This is beginning, family life, maintenance, body and soul together. This is the beginning. Business is there when there is excess. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. First of all you take care of the cows and engage yourself in agricultural products. Then when there is excess production, you trade, get some money for other purposes. But you... Agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade? Trade is required when there is excess product. Everything is there. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. And the kṛṣi you can produce independently. You simply work. You have got your hands and legs. You till the ground and throw some seed, and it will come. One kilo seeds, you'll get one hundred mounds. Then, when the product is excess, you trade. Everything is there. If you produce food grain, you'll eat nicely and you'll be strong. You'll be able to work more. Our point is take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Kṛṣṇa is advising immediately sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you'll do, that is perfect.
Girirāja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?
Prabhupāda: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture—that means you leave everything?
Girirāja: Well, what I have now.
Prabhupāda: And what you have got? You are asking that "I require now food." That means you have nothing. You have no food even. (aside:) Oh, you have brought it very quickly. Very nice. All right. [break] Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply wasting time, the civilization... śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Working hard and wasting valuable time of... Misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... When I think of their position... So every Vaiṣṇava should be para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. So you like it?
Hari-śauri: For thirty paisa it's very good. For the price it's very good.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's very good in other ways, full color. We're going to sell it for a rupee, and...
Prabhupāda: Kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. The unhappy for the unhappiness of others. They love them, unhappy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is a fact. The rascal may agree or not agree. That's a fact. Ghostly haunted.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] Where is this temple? London? No.
Hari-śauri: Which one? Oh, that's the German castle. Schloss Rettershof.
Prabhupāda: Oh, France.
Hari-śauri: German.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. I think it is rightly done.
Hari-śauri: For mass distribution it's very good, for mass distribution. How many copies he's...
Prabhupāda: One lakh. (end)
Room Conversation
with C.I.D. Chief

January 3, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: So you expand it. A dog is thinking, "I am this body. I am bulldog," "I am greyhound." And man is also thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian." But they do not know their real identity, and they are fighting like dogs. And this is going on in the name of civilization. And when we put forward Bhagavad-gītā, the first lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: [Bg. 2.11] "Arjuna, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are lamenting about the body. But actually..." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ: "So far the body is con..., this is lump of matter. So whether it is dead or alive, nobody seriously think of it, no learned, paṇḍita." Of course, those who are fools, rascal, they can take it. But those who are actually learned, they do not talk about this body. So upon this statement just see the world situation. Everyone is busy on the concept of body. So what is the position of the world? Apaṇḍita, ignorance. And such people are going on as learned scholars, as politicians and leaders and so on. So how there can be peace? If you bring different types of dogs, greyhound and bulldog and Indian dog and bring them—the "United Dog Association" (laughter)—so will there be peace? That is the position. I declared in Melbourne in a public meeting that this United Nation is the unity of barking dog. I told. It was published in the paper. They also criticized me, "The Swami has come to hound." (laughter) But that is actually the fact. If you become impartial judge, not on behalf of CID or anyone, then you see the actual.
CID Chief: That is the truth, eternal truth. What you have said...
Prabhupāda: No, we are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. So if I say that Kṛṣṇa says like this and it is a fact, then what is our fault? But they are taking very serious, just like especially nowadays in Western country they are opposing that "This philosophy is a brainwash." So this is our position. Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt brūyāt satyam apriyam.(?) The world situation is that you can speak truth if it is palatable. And if it is unpalatable, don't speak. But this thing cannot be maintained when you are preaching spiritual life. There we cannot cheat. Spiritual life must be declared very frankly. Not that we have to declare; it is already declared. Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. The spirit soul is within this body. The body is different from the spirit soul, and as it is changing—the body is changing—similarly, after death, so-called death... Because spirit has no death, no birth. Na jāyate na mriyate . So this knowledge is the beginning of spiritual life. And if you are preaching, they are opposing us. India also opposing. This is our position. They take Bhagavad-gītā and they mislead them. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our fault. So what we can do. Can you suggest?
CID Chief: (laughs) I am a layman. What...?
Prabhupāda: No... You should be very kind upon... And what we can do? And if I cheat in the name of Bhagavad-gītā, then I become a great leader.
CID Chief: All nation has turned... An extraordinary order, you spreading the message of Kṛṣṇa to the world, message of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: So at least Indians should join this movement. They're feeling the weight, the Western countries. They are opposing means that those who are thoughtful, they are thinking that "If this movement allowed to go on, then our civilization will be finished." That is their... That... They are right. They are right. If these young men, they go on under my instruction, I shall finish their civilization. That's a fact. No meat-eating in Western countries? (chuckling) No intoxication? No illicit sex? No gambling? That means their life is finished. And we are imitating, that "We are becoming advanced in civilization." And we are condemning.
CID Chief: But most of the people realize that that is not the real..., real kind of advancement.
Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss."
CID Chief: We are helpless. I assure that will stand, but actually what we call advancement in... It is not. People themselves are realizing that...
CID Chief: ...that advancement has led them to some sort of monotony, which they want to avoid, and they want to...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, we must know the destiny of life, what is the destiny of life. Then whether we are advancing or degrading, then it will be decided. But they do not know what is destiny of life. They are so fools, they are thinking that this life, say, for hundred years, and after hundred years everything finished. The Russian big, big professor, they think like that. I went to Moscow, and I talked with Indologist. They say "Swamiji, after this body is finished, everything is finished."
CID Chief: I read somewhere that this scientist, Russian scientist, was making research through electronics as to what happens to the soul when man dies, what actually happens when man dies. What is...
Prabhupāda: No, no. You may study with electronics and other, but it is a open secret. The soul departs from the body, and it is a lump of matter. What is the difference between a lump of matter and the dead body? We see practically a motorcar, when it is no more workable, it is a lump of matter. What is the value of it? Who cares for the motorcar? Of course, we do not see here, but in the Western countries there are many places. Oh, hundreds and thousands of cars are...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Junk yard.
Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands. Here, of course, we have not so many cars, but there in many cities I have seen. They have gathered together, and then they are pressed and thrown to the iron factory and again melted in fire of... So similarly, when the life is not there, it is a lump of matter. So it is lump of matter. Just like the motorcar. When it was being driven by driver, it has value, but when it is not to be driven anymore, it has no value. Similarly... But the motorcar is the same. It is the driver that is important. Similarly, the soul is important, not this body. But the modern civilization, accepting this body as the important, and they have no information of the driver, soul.
CID Chief: They try to decorate it, a body, dead body. It is...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Decorating a dead body.
CID Chief: No, but I think this..., a lot of a wakening in the minds of people.
Prabhupāda: This education is lacking throughout the whole world, and we have started this movement to give this education, and people are against. That means they have become so fallen that they cannot even take up right knowledge. The same proverb: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So we have to struggle against this darkness, but we have to do it. This is our mission. We cannot stop it. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. People are kept in darkness, and... That is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Kṛṣṇa's mission actually. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. "When people are misguided," tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, "at that time I come down." So the whole world is misguided on this bodily concept of life, and this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means Kṛṣṇa has come down in the shape of this movement. That is the real fact. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṇa kali-kāle avatāra. "In the Kali-yuga Kṛṣṇa is incarnated in the form of His name, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Therefore in this age... That... Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. This is the injunction of the śāstras. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, mukta-saṅga, he becomes free from all this material contamination, and he paraṁ vrajet, he goes back home, back to... So this name is not different. Because Kṛṣṇa is absolute, there is no difference between His name and Himself. And that is confirmed in the śāstra, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, śāstra recommends. We're just following their footprints, that's all. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. This Kali-yuga is the ocean of faults. So... But there is one great opportunity in this ocean of faults. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ param... [SB 12.3.51]. That is a great facility to these rascals, that if they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra they become free from all contamination and become fit for going back home, back to Godhead. So this is a authorized movement. It is not a concoction, manufactured idea. So we are doing that. Unfortunately, the people... Not all, but majority...
CID Chief: It has gained tremendous and spontaneous response, and people, all people... It has... The strength has shown me that people have taken liking from their soul. Not just...
Prabhupāda: No, these young men, they have taken seriously. Otherwise what business they have got to join me? They have taken it seriously. And with their help I am little able to push on this movement. But they are taking it seriously. And big, big learned scholars, they have opined that this movement is not going to die.
CID Chief: I saw the photograph yesterday, Vinoda Bhave, meeting with Vinoda Bhave.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're showing the pictures of our Walda (?) meeting. I just showed him pictures of our Walda meeting.
CID Chief: Vinoda Bhave.
Prabhupāda: Vinoda Bhave is also... He has issued some statement.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said "What Prabhupāda has done, no one has done," something like that.
CID Chief: Otherwise, how can the West would have come to know about Kṛṣṇa?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These are all books by Prabhupāda, all. I was telling our book sales...
Prabhupāda: Where is that telegram we have received yesterday?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was telling him our book sales are eight to ten lakh rupees a day. All by Gurujī, all. Can you imagine, Śrīla Prabhupāda writes one book a month. [break] One lakh seventy thousand big books. 90,737 medium books. 63,322 small books, and 437,420..., that is, four lakhs of Back to Godhead. Total in one week: seven lakhs and 9,236 books. In one week...
CID Chief: There won't be such a big...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda produces one book a month still.
Prabhupāda: Now... I am talking to you as a CID official. Now, here is my dictaphone. I... (clicks dictaphone switch) It is not working. (Prabhupāda plays back section of Bhāgavatam dictation he has made) This is a Sanskrit verse. (synonyms) Tatra(?) saumika. So the whole night I write books, and then this is typed. In the daytime they are typing. And then it is composed, and then it is made into book, and we take so much trouble to sell it, as you got the selling of, and we collect money and they send money, ten lakhs of rupees in India, and I construct the temple, not only here.(?) So is that my fault?
CID Chief: No, no, no. The man who would say it is a fault, either he is mad or it would be mistake.
Prabhupāda: In this old age-eighty-one years I am—I am working day and night just to preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and...
CID Chief: This is absolutely a service to God and humanity. Whatever tendency you have... Whatever comes out of your mouth, word, becomes a religious... It is written, out of which you write books. Out of the produce... From the proceeds of that book, you constructed a... It is wholeheartedly towards the God. Whole life is devoted to God.
Prabhupāda: And for these books, as author, if I would have taken royalty, my daily income would have been one lakh, fifty thousand. I don't take a single farthing. Whatever two cāpāṭis they give, that's all.
CID Chief: Then if that had been the objective, so much of this (indistinct) not would have come in reality.
Prabhupāda: I have no appetite also. (laughs) I do not eat too much. Whatever, one or two cāpāṭis, they give, I take. That's all. This is my royalty.
CID Chief: But any... How these politicians, they react to this in America? Do they...
Prabhupāda: There also... Here. Here people are suspecting that I am getting money from CIA, and they are also suspecting that I am cheating people and getting money.
CID Chief: Yeah, but do they have any prohibition about these religious discourses?
Prabhupāda: No, not... Prohibition has yet come. But individual cases, they have been instituted, and we are fighting by spending so much money to defend.
CID Chief: Yeah, but I read in some paper that somewhere they had this county courts, you know, ruling that people are disturbed by the kīrtanas and this for twenty-four hours and...
Prabhupāda: No, we have got judgment. You read those judgment, judges? We have got counterjudgements also.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, this is from Philadelphia, Judge Alfred Longo, U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. The Philadelphia decree was typical and included the following points: "Kṛṣṇa consciousness is recognized as an authentic religion. To broadcast the glories of God to all people, members of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society can perform saṅkīrtana, a missionary activity including chanting, dancing, and playing cymbals and drums, the dissemination of the word of God through preaching and reading aloud from religious literature, the distribution of religious literature, sanctified food and flowers to the public, and the solicitation and acceptance of contribution. In performing saṅkīrtana devotees can go wherever people gather: streets, libraries and other public places." So we also had decisions... Eventually we win almost all cases.
Prabhupāda: And we have got good support from the scholarly section by big, big professors. Even one priest, Mr. Cox, he is forming an association to support this movement in Harvard University. So we have got supporters also.
CID Chief: People are also coming in a good number to join this organization.
Prabhupāda: Indian community, they are also supporting us.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the Indians abroad.
Prabhupāda: Abroad. They got life. There was no temple. There was no hari-saṅkīrtana. Now they are feeling obliged. In London every Sunday all Indian community, they come. And during the Janmāṣṭamī, ten thousand people. Ten thousand people and the contribution was... What is? Twenty-five thousand pounds or...? One pound equal to twenty rupees.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourteen rupees. Now it's fourteen rupees. It's coming down every day.
Prabhupāda: And they are giving... Practically our temple is going on by the contribution of the Indians. They are giving goods. Rice, dāl, and ghee and our... No scarcity.
CID Chief: The Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Deity(?) which is close to most of the Indians. It's a common...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sometimes they ask that "What is your position, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in India?" And in India everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Everyone.
CID Chief: Because if you read from beginning, like the childhood, all His childhood plays and mischiefs and this from the birth, then childhood.
Prabhupāda: Every house. Even there are Muhammadan house, they observe Janmāṣṭamī. I know that. One professor in Allahabad, Kavi or something like... I went to his place. He's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one big movie star... Not very big. Sanjaya Khan. He's Muslim, but he wears a pendant of Kṛṣṇa always. He's our member. He's promised us a donation of ten thousand rupees after his picture is released. Many Muslims we have members now.
Prabhupāda: No, he's Indian Muslim. We have got Iranian Muslims. They are our devotees, many there.
CID Chief: Well, sir, I would like to remain here, but now I have to go to my office.
Prabhupāda: So give prasāda. Bring prasāda.
Prabhupāda: No, bring here. Jaya.
CID Chief: Just touch my hand, that's all, and make me cure bodily...
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Thank you. You come whenever you find time.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He comes regularly.
CID Chief: I was longing to come, so today I came. It's my great fortune that...
Prabhupāda: No... That. Even as CID officer, you can note. This is my business. I am working hard, producing these books, selling, and the telegram you see, and bringing that money here. So if you thing that I am still faulty, then what can I do?
CID Chief: From the beginning I have made it clear that I come here to get some mental peace.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have Chinese Bhagavad-gītā. Actually Trivikrama Swami has just come. He's been preaching in Taiwan. (breaks) (end)
Morning Walk

January 4, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: What prakṛti? When there is...
Dr. Patel: Mithyaiṣa vyavasāyas te prakṛtis tvāṁ niyokṣyati. The prakṛti drags you down in that world.
Prabhupāda: Because he was trained up as a fighter.
Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Our, one of the mission is to reestablish the division of the society according to...
Dr. Patel: But, sir, even without redividing them, nature has divided it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, nature has divided, but we are taking the post or some position without qualification. That must be rectified.
Dr. Patel: That, what you say, that we should not have come in possession of the power in government, is a fact. They have no that quality of governing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? There is no kṣatriyas.
Dr. Patel: They... You see, they govern for themselves, and not for people.
Prabhupāda: There is no brāhmaṇa in the society.
Dr. Patel: If they are there, they are not well-off.
Prabhupāda: No, there are. Just like we are creating these brāhmaṇas all over the world; not many, but some of them. There is at least one ideal class. But the modern society, they do not want brāhmaṇas, neither anybody interested to become a brāhmaṇa. That is animal society. You cannot ask a dog, "Please come here. I shall train you as a brāhmaṇa." (laughter) That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Our mixing with the Western type of society...
Prabhupāda: Western, Eastern, we don't...
Dr. Patel: We have actually imbibed their spirit of special, I mean, arrangement or management. Otherwise, up to the other day, we were well-classified. After doing that fifty or hundred years, perhaps, we have lost our real mooring.
Prabhupāda: No. It is necessary that in the society all classes of men must be there. Then it will be in order, on order.
Dr. Patel: The classes are complementary.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: The highest evolved man, the brain trust of the country, has got to be poor and has to be protected by other men. That is the highest. Otherwise, if a man with the brain becomes rascal, that is...
Prabhupāda: Miscreant. They are called duṣkṛti. They have got merit, but engaged in sinful activities. That is called duṣkṛti. Kṛti means meritorious. But duṣkṛtina. There are now... The education is there, but their brain is misused. That is called duṣkṛtina. Therefore they do not believe in God. Big, big men, they are nirākāra-vādī.
Dr. Patel: This co-education is no education at all. Education, that was really imparted by (indistinct) and ...
Prabhupāda: Education... This is craftsmanship.
Dr. Patel: I had an appointment to speak on education in the university of Bombay as a member of the Senate. And all the members of the Senate simply said, "Well, we could not help it because it has been so planned by the government." That is not ... This is not education that we're giving them. We are just giving them instruction how to read and write. The real education is the education of the mind by which you can discriminate what is right from the wrong and follow the right. That is what for the education. Modern universities are humbugness to me... The way I observed the university of Bombay working for ten years as a member of the Senate is humbug. The curricular is humbug; management is humbug; everything. Mode of examination is also like that.
Prabhupāda: Because they are not conducted by really educated.
Dr. Patel: The education that has been actually put in practice in India by MacCauley was just to prepare people to run their institutions.
Prabhupāda: Where is Girirāja? Can you call him?
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He said, Girirāja, that there is some declaration by Vinoda Bhave that "I'm now going to retire."
Dr. Patel: Who? Vinobari.(?) (Vinoda Bhave?)
Prabhupāda: "Completely. And now I shall endeavor for mokṣa." So that means till now he was not on the liberation platform.
Indian: He is... Vinoda Bhave is real brāhmaṇa. He is truly a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes I know that. That may be. Brāhmaṇa is sattva-guṇa. That may be, but that does not mean liberation. There is knowledge. At least he understands what is liberation and what is not.
Dr. Patel: Knowledge put in practice is vijñāna. Jñāna vijñāna saha.
Prabhupāda: So, if he's trying for becoming liberated, it is understood that he was not liberated.
Dr. Patel: He must have been disillusioned by all this. He has really done work in this way that anybody would be disillusioned.
Prabhupāda: Now, our point is that if you are not liberated, how you can become leader? That is cheating.
Dr. Patel: This is the (indistinct). The political, socio-political... I don't know the sort of...
Prabhupāda: Our point is that if you do not get knowledge from liberated person, that knowledge is useless. That is cheating. [break] It is very easy. Just like a child. If he takes your direction, he liberated, and if he acts according to his childish nature, then he's conditioned. If you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are liberated. If you manufacture your own idea, then you are conditioned. Two things. Child is not actually liberated. He is child. But because he takes blindly the direction of the father, he's liberated. That is mām eva ye prapadyante. Anyone who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa and strictly follows what Kṛṣṇa says, then he is liberated. Otherwise not. If he manufactures idea, then he's conditioned.
Dr. Patel: It is what? Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]?
Prabhupāda: Yes, and it is very easy: "Henceforward I shall simply follow what Kṛṣṇa says." That's all. You become liberated immediately. It is one minute's task, simply to decide that "No more my concoction, my imagination." Then he is liberated.
Dr. Patel: But this decision, all these things is done by the mind which has got all the vartmas of the past births.
Prabhupāda: Mind may be, but if I ask the mind that "You cannot do anything except what Kṛṣṇa says," then you are liberated. Very easy. You see? We are doing the same thing. We are not liberated. I am not liberated. But I am presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. That's my doing.
Dr. Patel: You mean sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. That is your duty you have. That is what ...
Prabhupāda: So that verse is very important. That mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. As soon as you become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, you are liberated, not that liberated means one has to grow four hands and eight legs. No. Simply you have to change the consciousness, that "Henceforward I shall act only as directed by Kṛṣṇa." That's all. You are liberated. It is one minute....
Dr. Patel: How do you get that direction moment by moment, hour by hour?
Prabhupāda: By His representative, by His words, they are present. Where is the difficulty to get His direction? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. One who has seen, one who has understood Kṛṣṇa, take direction from him. "He's my representative." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. If you get right guru, then you are liberated. If you follow the direction, if you want to please him, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **, then you are liberated. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this? Mām eva ye prapadyante. There is no need of waiting for liberation. "As soon as one surrenders to Me, he is immediately above the platform of māyā." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So what was the Vinoda Bhave's statement published in the paper?
Girirāja: That he's not going to give any more public lectures and he's not going to give any more advice to any institutions.
Prabhupāda: But, now he's thinking that it is useless. Otherwise why he would say like that? And mokṣa? He's going to try for mokṣa?
Girirāja: Yes. He's saying that by reducing these activities he wants to get mokṣa.
Prabhupāda: So, our point is that if he was not on the platform of mokṣa, liberation, why did he waste his time by spoiling himself and for spoiling others? Now he has come to his senses, it is good, but it is to be understood that he simply spoiled his time and spoiled others' career by misleading them. Thus, without being liberated, nobody can guide anyone. That is useless. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If you have no eyes, then how can you lead others? If you are blind and they are blind, then what is the use of becoming their leaders? Actually all the so-called leaders and scholars, they are blind themselves and they have become big, big leader. That is the misfortune of the present life. And, therefore, our proposition is you take direction from Kṛṣṇa and His representative. That's all. That will help you. Try to understand this point. Our system, paramparā system, is that I am just like disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. I don't say that I am liberated. I am conditioned. But because I am following the instruction of Bhaktisiddhānta, I'm liberated. This is the distinction between conditioned and liberated. When one is under the direction of a liberated person... The same thing: Electricity. The copper is not electricity, but when it is charged with electricity, if it is touched, that is electricity. And, similarly, this paramparā system, the electricity is going. If you cut the paramparā system, then there is no electricity. Therefore it is stressed so much. Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. The electricity is lost. These people, they do not know. Now at the fag end of life, they are thinking, if intelligent person, that "What I have done actually?" If one has sense, he should come to this understanding. By cutting some, what is that? Dead trees? The civil disobedience began by cutting dead trees. Is it not? Vinoda Bhave, he began his leadership forty years ago by cutting... Gandhi also, civil disobedience. So this kind of leadership might have been little enthusiasm for the time being, but actually what people gain by that, such leadership?
Dr. Patel: Anta-kāle 'pi brahma-nirānanda. He thinks that way, that in last moment he is, come to that stage, he will be ...
Prabhupāda: That is very good, but we should know also that so long, whatever he has done, that is from the blind platform, so nobody has gained anything. And if it was on the real platform, then svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. So kṛṣṇa-bhakti is such nice thing that even a little... There are many places it is confirmed that even a person in kṛṣṇa-bhakti stage falls down, being immature, what is the loss there? Bhāgavata... What is the loss there?
Dr. Patel: There is no loss, since Kṛṣṇa said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41].
Prabhupāda: So that is the... If kṛṣṇa-bhakti, a little done... And what does he gain? If he does not take kṛṣṇa-bhakti and does a duty, what does he gain? Abhajatāṁ svadharmataḥ. Abhajatāṁ svadharmataḥ. He is strictly following his occupational duty, but he's not a bhakta. What does he gain? Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer [SB 1.5.17]. Can anyone quote this verse?
Dr. Patel: Bhakti is your... Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya [Bg. 18.46]. If you do your...
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. That is the beginning. That is also bhakti. But bhakti means he must be conscious that "Kṛṣṇa is my Lord. I have to serve Him." That is the beginning of bhakti.
Dr. Patel: If he is not conscious, how can he do work for Him?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning. Then it becomes purified more and more and more and more by service. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. Then he realizes his position. Svayam eva sphuraty... The more he advances in sevonmukha, by service, God becomes revealed to him. And then buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Then as he becomes more confidential, then he is imparted buddhi-yogam, means bhakti-yoga. What is that bhakti-yoga? Yena mām upayānti te. "That bhakti-yoga, by which he can come back to Me." Not that bhakti-yoga means you remain here in this rotten place. Yena mām upayānti te. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam [Bg. 10.10]. He can receive that buddhi-yoga. What is that buddhi-yoga? Yena mām upayānti. So this is required. This is the ultimate goal of life.
Dr. Patel: But that buddhi-yoga which we have left undone in the previous birth, God with His mercy gives you that buddhi...
Prabhupāda: Buddhi-yoga continues, continues. If it is unfinished... Unless that buddhi-yoga is complete, one is not allowed. One is not allowed. He remains within this material world, very opulent position. Position like Indra, Candra, Brahmā. They are devotees, but not pure devotees. They have got some tinge of material enjoyment. Therefore they are given big, big post. One has become Brahmā, one has become the king of heaven; one has become the king of moon planet, sun planet. They are not ordinary living being.
Dr. Patel: Ananya... They are not ananya-bhaktas.
Prabhupāda: No. They had some tinge that "By bhakti I shall enjoy this material world." And bhakti means anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. I have not at all, niṣkiñcana. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. They don't care for this Brahmā's post or Indra's post or... They don't care.
Dr. Patel: Bhakti-cāriṇī.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. For a devotee, this kaivalya-sukha of the Māyāvādī, impersonalist...
Dr. Patel: Just like naraka.
Prabhupāda: Is the hell for them. What is this nonsense? Who will understand this? Huh? Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. And heaven, tridaśa-pūrākāśa-puṣpāyate. Heavenly planets, they are will of the wisp. Phantasmagoria. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pūrākāśa-puṣpāyate durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Karmī, jñānī... Jñānī wants kaivalya and karmī wants heavenly happiness. And the yogi, yogi wants to control the senses. So he says that "Yes, we know the senses are very powerful." Durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Indriya, it is just like snake. If you play with a snake you do not know at any moment death is there by biting. So although these indriyas are like snakes, kāla-sarpa, venomous serpent, but protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate. We have... What is called? Extricated?
Girirāja: Extracted
Prabhupāda: Extracted the fangs. The fangs if they are taken away, it may do like useless. Similarly, for a devotee the indriyas are dangerous. But because devotee, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa. they have engaged their indriyas in the service of the Lord, the fangs are taken out. Durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate. The whole universe for them is very happy. Everyone is it is very unhappy. For them it is very happy. Because he does not see anything which is not suitable for Kṛṣṇa's service. Viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pūrākāśa-puṣpāyate durdānta indriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate(Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5). And the post of vidhi, means Brahmā and Mahendra... What is this? Kīṭāyate. It is just like...
Dr. Patel: Bug.
Prabhupāda: Ha, just like ordinary insects. He is also living entity. He is enjoying in his own capacity, he's enjoying. Vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate yat-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhava-vatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ. "It happens so by the little fragmental mercy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Therefore I offering my obeisances unto you." Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī. Durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate yat-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhava-vatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ(Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5). This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy. A little mercy will render all this. So what he will do now that he has not said?
Girirāja: He just said that "I will not follow religion in the traditional sense."
Prabhupāda: That means another condition. From frying pan to the fire. (laughter) Dharmena hīna paśubhiḥ samaḥ. As soon as you give up religious principles, you are no better than animal. That means he will manufacture. The same disease. "I'll not follow the traditional." This is their death block. That they always think that "I am independent. I can manufacture my way. I can become happy in that way." They're always thinking like that. And in a meeting with hundreds of men claps, that he is his liberated. "Now it is approved." Who is approving? That is criticized by Bhāgavata. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. This. They are animals and they are applauding another animal. That's all. Big animal. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ. These ordinary persons, they are paśu and they are applauding. The man who is applauded, he's another big paśu. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Camels, asses...
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ.
Dr. Patel: Just like camel and ass. Ahorūpa mahad-guṇaiḥ. (?)One man...
Prabhupāda: They... It is very difficult. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. speak all these big, big words they have no qualification. Only disqualification is that they do not accept God as Supreme and His instruction is...
Dr. Patel: He may be accepting God as Supreme, but not (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: That is their imagination. God is canvassing, "Yes, I am here." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. "Why don't you think that I am the Supreme?" But these rascals will never believe it. And still they'll write Gītā-pravacana. Very dangerous. Gītā is spoken by God.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Some portion. He wanted to prove himself that he is Puruṣottama.
Dr. Patel: He's not Puruṣottama. He does not say that. Puruṣottama is really reality in true sense and...
Prabhupāda: But his disciples say he is more than Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Disciples..., disciples...
Prabhupāda: That means why he has created such nonsense? If the disciples say something wrong, then that means he is also wrong. These people will never say that "Our Guru Mahārāja is more than Kṛṣṇa." They are not so nonsense. They will say "My Guru Mahārāja is servant of Kṛṣṇa and I am his servant."
Dr. Patel: He has said Puruṣottama is svarūpa. It cannot be a... Anything which is infinite cannot be grasped by finite senses. That's what he said.
Prabhupāda: This is going on. But disciples say that Aurobindo is more than... This is their knowledge.
Girirāja: That means he's failed as a guru. He hasn't...
Prabhupāda: He could not give them right knowledge. Phalena paricīyate. The paricīya is to be understood by the result. The disciple is the result. If they are so fool, then what is the guru?
Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇava-paramparā, Vallabhācārya, the whole lot is now. I have seen it.
Prabhupāda: They are criticizing us.
Dr. Patel: This thing is the God has to reincarnate Himself again to reestablish bhāgavata-dharma.
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. If you don't mind, your Swami Nārāyaṇa is also like that.
Dr. Patel: All of them. They are. That is why, I mean, liberation is created by God again by incarnation.
Prabhupāda: They create a cheap God. Real God they reject. That is going on.
Dr. Patel: Swami Nārāyaṇa said that (Sanskrit). Only to worship Kṛṣṇa. Nobody else. Unfortunately the disciples... Suppose disciples...
Prabhupāda: That the same thing. If the disciples are rascals, then what is the guru?
Dr. Patel: The disciple is being called guru-Kṛṣṇa again. That is what happens in all the other Vaiṣṇava. They say Vallabhācārya Mahāprabhu in place of Kṛṣṇa. That is wrong. Yathā. Yathā deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā...
Prabhupāda: Gurau.
Dr. Patel: Gurau. That is fact. Then you can get the real, I mean, kṛpā of guru and realize God. But they're...
Prabhupāda: These things happened by Vallabhācārya. That's a long history generally. They call him Mahāprabhu to make competition with real Mahāprabhu, Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya was disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Prabhupāda: Not disciple. Very admirer. But when He criticized strongly on account of his attacking Śrīdhara Svāmī...
Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu differs in philosophy from Vallabhācārya. He did.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they were friend, Vallabhācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he wanted to present his (indistinct) Gītā to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that "You'll find better than Śrīdhara Svāmī."
Dr. Patel: That is the highest
Prabhupāda: So He became very dissatisfied. He... Because friendly, He said that "If you don't accept svāmī, then you are a veśya." These words He recited, svāmī māne yei jana veśyāra. These are there, these words.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya's establishment of his own family members as the paramparā is wrong. That is why the whole system has degraded.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not śiṣya-paramparā.
Dr. Patel: Śiṣya-paramparā is the right... The same thing is happening in Swami Nārāyaṇa's. They have degraded. Because Swami Nārāyaṇa actually put his two nephews as ācārya. That was wrong. In South with Rāmānujācārya, they have got a śiṣya-paramparā. But they have also degenerated.
Prabhupāda: No... Sons also may become śiṣya provided he's qualified. Otherwise not.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) the real fellow. Real. They this śiṣya-paramparā in two...
Prabhupāda: Śiṣyān ca putrān ca. There is no difference. But not because he is śiṣya of such person or putra of such person. Not like that. Either śiṣya or putra.
Dr. Patel: The guru-śiṣya is as good as putra. More than a putra. To a real guru the śiṣya is more than a putra.
Prabhupāda: For guru there is no difference. But the real thing is qualification. That gotra, our gotra, that is applicable to the śiṣya and to the putra.
Dr. Patel: That is in śiṣya-paramparā they have got that... Gautama.
Prabhupāda: Gotra... Just like gotra, Kasya-gotra.(?) This gotra means this family, either śiṣya or putra. Just like Gautama-gotra, there are many brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas. So those who are brāhmaṇas, it means putras and those who are kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they are śiṣyas. But the gotra is the same. So we shall go down. (end)
Room Conversation

January 4, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: That should be stressed. First business is the neighboring village people, they should come, chant and take prasāda. And gradually, when they become interested, then they come, live with us, work with us. In this way they should be induced, bare living and chanting.
Jagadīśa: As in Hyderabad.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then our movement is success. Our only motive is how people become interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other motive. No economic problem... Economic problem is... What is economic problem? We produce our own food and cloth, barely, and spiritual life... On the farm it is easier. And if they are dispatched to the city for livelihood, there are big, big roads and big, big cars and big, big anxieties. Then wine, meat, and so on, so on..., suicide, their spiritual life finished. These rascals are protesting. They have no ideas of spiritual life. They think this is life, to be merry, enjoy and drink. "Eat. Drink. Be merry." How they are committing suicide, they do not know. Nature's law is very stringent. They are foolish rascal. There is no education for them. Still, if we try, many men will be saved. So write very elaborately how to do this. Increase. And in your country, we increase this farm project any unlimited number... So much land is lying vacant. We can utilize the wood for constructing residences. And as soon as the jungle is clear, we can utilize it for growing food and keeping cows, as exactly they are doing in New Vrindaban. The cows are very happy. In our original New Vrindaban... What you have named it?
Jagadīśa: The original farm? I think they still call that New Vrindaban.
Prabhupāda: No, New Vrindaban, whole thing. That is called Bahulaban or something like that? So the cows are free moving. They're very happy. You have seen it?
Jagadīśa: The original farm I haven't seen for some time.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Last time you were not... I had been there. The cows are moving freely. They're very friendly, even to the children, just like family members. Yes. Kṛṣṇa... You'll find in India one boy taking care of twenty-five cows.
Jagadīśa: With just a stick.
Prabhupāda: Yes, with a stick. (chuckles) They are so submissive. The cow is going this side, "Raa-raa!"—immediately. (Jagadīśa laughs) When in Bible they say, "The animal is given to the care of man," like that... There is. This is care of, not that "Because we care of, we shall kill them." What is this interpretation? How demonic this Western civilization. "Because Jesus Christ, the God, has given the animals to our care, therefore we shall kill and eat." Anyway, try to introduce a renovation of civilization. Therefore they are trying to oppose us. Now they are conscious about the movement, that "If it is allowed to increase, then our program will be finished. And young men are taking. They are not rejecting." That is their concern. They are concerned about their business and industry. If these young men are held up in plain living, then where their industry...? Industry means to exploit the work of others and give them one dollar and make profit ten dollars. This is industry, at the cost of others some capitalist gaining huge profit. This is industry. "And let them live in a hellish condition, go to hell. Never mind. You work in the factory, and we make profit." The Communist is trying to take over the industry and get the whole profit. (laughs) That's all. The condition remains the same—hellish. But... What is called...? Complacent, he's satisfied that "I am getting the profit." All foolish. The Iran is also imitating European method of exploiting. They're bringing men from village. In India also, British period, they used to, that, but Indian people are little clever. They would come from the village to the city alone, not with family. They earn money and send to the family. And whenever they like, they go away. They're not dependent. And if you bring family, you have to work. That system is still going on. The village men, they come but they do not bring their family. Family remains in the village. He earns, he lives some way or other and sends money there, and the wife who is intelligent. He (she) accumulates the money and when there is enough money he (she) purchases land, investment. So... In after few years, when they have got enough land, they do not come back. They produce their own necessities. Very nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon as they are self-sufficient from the land they no more work. That's a good idea. Remain in the village with family.
Trivikrama: So I'm enthusiastic to do this assignment with Caitya-guru. But one difficulty is the men that are behind in Taiwan and Hong Kong, there's only three men, or two men actually. And...
Prabhupāda: No local man is coming?
Trivikrama: Well, one local American, he's helping. But no Chinese. They're not interested. We tried to present a nice program. We did kīrtanas. I'm a little disappointed, but... But still, this program can go on. We can sell books. But one thing...
Prabhupāda: No, selling books is our propaganda. That is very good program.
Trivikrama: One thing... As far as being... We're shorthanded because I'm going to be coming back to India. I was thinking that because you instructed Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami to help me by sending two men... But actually he never really sent two men.
Prabhupāda: If there is no men, how can he do?
Trivikrama: But there's so many men now in New York. Now it's January. There's no more big book distribution, plus they're recruiting so many men.
Prabhupāda: So why they are not? It is simply lack of management. If there is no sufficient work, some men can go. Write. He is also GBC. Men should be equally distributed.
Devotees: Jaya. (offer obeisances) (end)
Letter to Russian

January 5, 1977, Bombay
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of course if the Russians...
Prabhupāda: You can reprint this for distribution here, Russian ships.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The only danger to this will be that if the Russian government finds out that we are translating Russian literature, because hearing "propaganda,"—this is what the Christians do—then they will crack down very hard on our disciples there.
Prabhupāda: Where is my disciple there?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, only a few you have, Ananta-śānti. And they won't let us go there at all in the future.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean we shall not do that.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then they will think...
Prabhupāda: They'll think. It is. Why shall I not do it? All thinking actually. We must do it. So where is that card? Bring it. I shall dictate.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That card?
Prabhupāda: Your card is...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's on my side. You don't want the card, do you?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jagadīśa: Yes. He wants to see it.
Prabhupāda: It is addressed to you?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'll show it to you. It just says, "Happy New Year." That's all.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still, we have to reply them with this copy.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, very good. So I should take a dictation?
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: Who has signed that?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's from Mr. Yekinow. I had met him in Moscow. He's now in Delhi with the Russian
Prabhupāda: What he is?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a chief of the Russian agency that imports books into Russia.
Prabhupāda: Well, so address him.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "Dear Mr. Yekinow."
Prabhupāda: So it has come from Delhi?
Prabhupāda: So give the Delhi address, embassy.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have told them that we don't have any Bhaktivedanta Book Trust offices in Bombay because I did not want them to visit our... I told them our Bhaktivedanta Book Trust office is in Bombay, because then he would have said, "I'll come and visit you in your office" and then he would have come to the temple. So we don't want to show any connection with ISKCON for Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because then they'll find out it's religion and they will stop it at once.
Prabhupāda: As soon as he reads the book, he will find, according to them...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, what I told the Russians was that ISKCON buys all the books from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.
Prabhupāda: Just keep that position. What is...?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I mean we have to keep it...
Prabhupāda: But we have got pictures of God, and with every page there is Kṛṣṇa, and how you can hide it? That is another foolishness. Every page, there is Kṛṣṇa, and there is nothing but Kṛṣṇa.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But by the time they find out, we are already in the country. For example, if I would have told them about ISKCON before, when I was applying for my visa...
Prabhupāda: No, no... Anyway they may find, early or later, but how you can stop them finding? It is simply impossible.(?)
Hari-śauri: Anyway, they expect that something coming from India is going to have something to do with God.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are saying... What I said is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust is dedicated to publishing books on ancient Indian culture.
Prabhupāda: You say like that... Whatever you like, you can say, but when they read the book it is simply...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (chuckles)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but the scholars, the Russian scholars, know... [break]
Prabhupāda: They have published their photograph in the paper. They take it, whatever... But the things are already there. So "Dear Mr. such and such, I thank you very much for your greetings card received recently. This cultural movement is depending in future on Russian intelligence and Indian culture. On this cultural movement, recently our Stockholm center has published one book..." What it is written here?
Jagadīśa: Easy Journey to Other Planets.
Prabhupāda: In Russian language?
Jagadīśa: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: "Easy Journey to Other Planets. So this is a different culture, how to go to other planetary system, how to transfer the soul from one body to another. In other planets there are also living entities. One can transfer himself, after giving up this body, to anywhere he likes without any help of the sputnik, and without the help of the sputnik or any flying machine. This is the mystic system unknown to the world, but it is authorized in the Vedas, original culture of the human civilization."
Hari-śauri: It's on the tape. I'm recording it too.
Prabhupāda: So, "A preliminary booklet is presented herewith to your good self. Kindly read it carefully and let me know your reaction. We are prepared to answer all intricate questions in this subject." In this way present.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fine. I have made a lot of friends in Russia. I was going to send them. Only problem... Actually, I'll tell you what's happening with my correspondence with Russia. The Russian spying agency is so strong, they're not letting my letters get through, because...
Prabhupāda: Then don't send. What is the use of sending?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually what I was thinking of was, in my letters...
Prabhupāda: First of all see one man. Test.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was going to mention to him in my letter that I'm surprised how I'm not getting replies to my letters from the people I visited in Russia.
Prabhupāda: Why? Why you should inquire from him? If you know that there is difficulty, why should you inquire?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he can then have his Moscow address office get me the replies.
Prabhupāda: Why? Why you are anxious to get their reply? Their country is like that. Why...? Yes. Why should you bother and strain your brain unnecessarily? You should know they are all rascals. That's all. But here we get an opportunity. You can write, present it to... Where is the other book?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. So I can take one. And I can order some more from Stockholm and send them to these people as gift.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they can send directly. They can write under instruction.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. That's okay. I got a letter from Rajiv Gupta today.
Prabhupāda: I read that letter.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told him to do the Gītā because he was very, very anxious, and I found that he was the most enthusiastic. So he's already completed... He promises me by February it will be completed.
Prabhupāda: If he's enthusiastic, let him do.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He knew that we gave to Dr. Poliwal so he said, "I will do it. Don't let her do it." So at the present moment three people are doing the Gītā. There's another professor in Lucknow who I told to do also. We don't know whose will be perfect. But I think Rajiv is most enthusiastic to do it. I think Poliwal's will be little slow. And then we can see whose Hindi was the best.
Prabhupāda: That you do not know very much.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I was going to present it to some scholar and then to you. This man I brought today, that assistant editor, I think he will help. I can gradually give him work, and he's in Bombay. His Hindi is very good. He's assistant editor, so...
Prabhupāda: So you do that. Get the help of composition and monotype.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is the biggest... The Teachings of Lord Caitanya I gave for composing four months ago, and still they're going so slow.
Prabhupāda: The hand set-up is not...?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but in Delhi I could not find any. The only one in Delhi who has mono is Times of India, and it's very difficult to get it done. So I had no alternative.
Prabhupāda: In Calcutta there are many.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I found out that in Allahabad there are a lot for Hindi. But then we had to have somebody over there.
Prabhupāda: Allahabad.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, one devotee or someone who will supervise that. I suspect Bombay will be much more expensive, but I want to check. Tomorrow I'll check it.
Prabhupāda: Allahabad, we are going.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But right now is Kumbhamela in Allahabad, everything's going to be in so much rush, it's going to be hard to do any business.
Prabhupāda: No, businessmen are there all right. I was doing that business. So in my shop they..., visitors used to come there.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That shop. (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning Rāmeśvara Mahārāja and Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja spoke to me.
Prabhupāda: I have heard that. That's good idea.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's good idea? So Hṛdayānanda Swami and Kīrtanānanda Swami are going to Africa. And on the 9th they told me to send a telegram signed by you saying you are sick and you want Brahmānanda to come immediately. So then Kīrtanānanda Swami will personally bring Brahmānanda Swami to India. But they want him to become your permanent secretary again.
Prabhupāda: I have no objection.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You have no objection. Okay. And Hṛdayānanda Swami is ready to manage Africa till the festival.
Prabhupāda: He was experienced, Brahmānanda, in Africa. Where is that Cyavana? He is gone?
Jagadīśa: He is a big mess.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Cyavana? Cyavana Swami? [break] I think they're going to have war in Africa pretty soon. They're going to have war.
Prabhupāda: War. Civil war?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, between... Not where Kenya is but between Rhodesia and Zambia, in that area.
Hari-śauri: Whites and blacks.
Prabhupāda: That is inevitable. The whites cannot...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Rhodesia has rejected...
Prabhupāda: ...cannot kill them, repress any more. That is not possible. The other blacks will join.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And it appears that even President Carter of America is more soft on the blacks now. He is more sympathetic. So if they get American support...
Prabhupāda: Nowadays you cannot be a suppressor of any particular foreigner. That is not possible.
Jagadīśa: Except the religious community.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They will suffer, both of them, because this is not civilization. This is assembly of dogs. So there trouble must be there. You cannot keep the dogs peaceful. That is my final... If you keep them animals, how you can expect...?
Jagadīśa: That's not only between nation to nation.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. If the men are kept as animals, you cannot expect them peaceful citizens. That is not possible. The fighting will go on on one plea or another. You cannot stop. (pause) Was it...? You give...? Pālikā?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahārāja got the income tax today. The income tax also... And our auditor... Their interpretation of the law is so rigid, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We have to say so many lies. For example...
Prabhupāda: That you may not bother about, for...
Prabhupāda: So you can make idli? What is called? Is it called?
Pālikā: Tonight?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pālikā: No. Because I have to grind... It has to soak, then I have to grind it. Then it has to sit for six or eight hours. I can prepare it now for tomorrow night.
Prabhupāda: All right, for tomorrow night.
Pālikā: Anything else you would like tonight?
Prabhupāda: No. I wanted to take that idli, one or two cakes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So Prabhupāda, I can go to Santa Cruz and get you very nice idlis. They have a very nice Madras cafe there.
Prabhupāda: I think some of our men, they make. Mr. Mennon?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, his wife is sick. So I don't know if he would make it right away. You want to eat it right away, tonight, isn't it? There's a nice Madras cafe near Santa Cruz station on Willard Furrough.(?) I can go and get you from there.
Prabhupāda: If you can get, bring.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Should I bring that coconut chutney also?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is essential.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'll bring about six or eight.
Prabhupāda: You can bring. I'll take, utmost, one or two.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'll go and bring it now.
Prabhupāda: So I have decided to construct a temple in Bhuvaneśvara.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You have? Okay.
Prabhupāda: The condition is that I'll invest money for Oriya language books, and you'll sell-half the collection for temple, and half the collection for printing again, the same principle.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They won't be able to collect one crore by selling books.
Prabhupāda: No, no, if they can, I have no objection. I can give them ten crores.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they'll never be able to...
Prabhupāda: No, that you cannot say. It is all in the hands of Kṛṣṇa. Not one crore. Say a few lakhs. He's ready to go town to town, village, in Orissa. He wants that in my absence somebody must be there to look after the construction. That is quite reasonable.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, definitely.
Prabhupāda: So I have told them "Any amount I can invest. You print book and sell." That is my open secret. Print books, and distribute, and spend half in whichever life you do and half, again print books. That is my ambition (vision?). I want to see our philosophy is widely spread by different literatures. That I want to do.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That will be very good. There are a few people here, like Vijeta, who is Saurabha's assistant, he could probably go to Bhuvaneśvara and supervise the construction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So arrange.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are too many people here. We don't need that many in Bombay for the Bombay construction.
Prabhupāda: So let him come to Bhuvaneśvara. I am going after Kumbhamela. And begin the work immediately. We have got one gentleman, professor. He is good learned scholar. I can engage him for translating.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oriya. Very nice.
Prabhupāda: He has writing... That machine... I can see the manuscript. In this way, arrangement make.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. We just printed two books in Oriya, Topmost Yoga and one more. One more.
Prabhupāda: He likes Oriya language.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Gaura-Govinda Swami? He is very sincere devotee.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, undoubtedly.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very sincere.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa sent him. He... In Vṛndāvana, he said that "Please give me shelter." I thought that "There are so many Indian comes and go." So when he insisted, "All right, you stay."
Hari-śauri: Yeah. He took sannyāsa at the opening of the temple. I remember that.
Prabhupāda: He's a good boy.
Hari-śauri: He's stuck it out for a long time in Orissa. He's been there a long time, by himself a lot of the time too.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He's organizing nicely.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very sincere. He follows all the regulations very rigidly. He gets up in the morning, ideal example.
Jagadīśa: He understands the philosophy quite well.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And he is educated. He is B.Sc. He knows Hindi also.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He worked on Hindi translation for some time.
Prabhupāda: Where is that Hindi typewriter?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I never saw that typewriter.
Prabhupāda: Ask Yaśodānandana, Yaśomatī-nandana, immediately. You ask him for my brāhmaṇa... Yes. So very steadily do everything. Opposition will come. We have to face.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll arrange for your idlis, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Idlis and if dosa... Dosa?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There's two types of dosas. One is masalā; one is sada. Masalā has got potatoes inside.
Prabhupāda: Potatoes?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, inside. What they do is... Inside it's like...
Prabhupāda: Which one is better?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sada is without.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sada? Or I'll get masalā if there are no onions in it. Sometimes they put onions.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If there's no onions, I'll get one masalā also. Okay.
Prabhupāda: (japa) Except in few provinces, everyone eats onion, all over the world. And garlic. In Western countries I think onion and garlic, cent percent they eat.
Hari-śauri: Not so much garlic but onion anyway. Onions they love, big ones.
Prabhupāda: (japa) Sell books and this principle follow: half construct temple, half print books. That's it. No income tax. "We have spent everything. That's all." (japa) In Vṛndāvana, he was suggesting, that Set, Setterji, that "You make some will. Otherwise, after your... In your absence the government will..." And I'll not keep a single farthing. I shall spend all before I die. (chuckles) Invest in book, that's all. I am insisting on this. But I am simply afraid if we have got enough stock, it may not be stolen and misused. Otherwise I want to immediately invest in books all the money that I have got.
Hari-śauri: I don't think there'll be any problem there.
Prabhupāda: So arrange like that. We want. Then I'll print all books, keep in stock. Never mind. Why use the bank?
Hari-śauri: Rāmeśvara's coming soon. I can...
Prabhupāda: Hm. Keep in stock. It will be sold. There is no doubt.
Hari-śauri: And now we have so many different languages coming out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And here, if we make closet or on the wall. We can keep anywhere, all the verandas, all these rooms, four walls, keeping books, book stock. Make vigorous propaganda by advertising, "Read Hare Kṛṣṇa literature. Hare Kṛṣṇa is wonderful." In this way advertise. Hindi, English, Bengali. I can give suggestion; you do it. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... We are getting paper now, government paper. Money is there. Now we have to print very intelligently, and even it is not immediately sold, we can keep stock. (pause) [break] "Cultivate seriously spiritual life. Welcome. Come here. Live with us. We have got enough place." They want that sense gratification in the old age, when the senses are no more capable, still. (end)
Roof Conversation

January 5, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: Unless you are convinced, you cannot convince others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. And to save them is paropakāra, real welfare activity. [break]
Trivikrama: ...andhā to be saved.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But our duty is to try. [break]
Devotee (1): ...according to an official in the Central Railway.
Prabhupāda: So how many tickets we have got?
Devotee (1): We've got twenty tickets for the devotees in second-class, plus two for yourself and Hari-śauri in first-class.
Mr. Gupta: Well it's not the consideration of tickets, it's just on the midnight of 31st and 1st. When I was very disturbed, I just got into the train for a drive, being a railway man, and there was just some intuition that I came here and I had your darśana.
Prabhupāda: When you came?
Mr. Gupta: On the 3lst and lst. On the lst morning. And from that I... As happens to be, I've been coming every day.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Mr. Gupta: On the 2nd you were kind enough to autograph the Gītā...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, I remember.
Mr. Gupta: ...which I purchased from here.
Prabhupāda: You are reading Bhagavad-gītā?
Mr. Gupta: I not started reading that one. I'm reading the Śrī... Īśo...
Prabhupāda: Īśopaniṣad.
Mr. Gupta: Īśopaniṣad. I read the other Gītā. But after I finish this, then I'll start your edition. I have read Gītā, the ordinary one from Gita Press, Gorakphur. I've read Dr. Radhakrishna in portion, Dr. Rajagopalacarya. I hope to gain something more.
Prabhupāda: The difference between other Gītās and our Gītā... We therefore said, "As It Is." No interpretation. That is the disaster. Authority, Kṛṣṇa, and to interpret on His word, this is very disastrous.
Mr. Gupta: Lord Kṛṣṇa has been good to me right from my childhood. I was brought up in a good religious family. I have always been able to have my way. I think that's what's wrong. I get very strong desires, likes, dislikes. I have been successful, very, very successful, in material sense, in work. I want to... Doesn't leave me with peace.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is your full name?
Mr. Gupta: Rabindranath Gupta. I'm not a Bengali. I belong to Delhi. I've lived eight years in Bengal, Citra and then Durgapur.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So you can speak in Bengali.
Mr. Gupta: I can understand (exchange few words in Bengali).
Prabhupāda: Bengali is not at all very difficult.
Mr. Gupta: No, not at all. Once upon a time I could read and write. But it's just out of touch.
Prabhupāda: The Calcutta Marwaris, they speak very fluently. Yes.
Mr. Gupta: Fluently. Being in railways I've had about eight cross-country transfers. Rajkot, Ajmer, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Lohar(?). So I know as much of Gujarati and Marwari too.
Prabhupāda: Rajastani?
Mr. Gupta: Rajastani. Hindi is the mother tongue for Rajastani.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hindi is understood everywhere. [break] ...Bhagavad-gītā, what you have learned?
Mr. Gupta: The only thing that I have been able to learn is we... I was told so, quite.(?) By keeping our mind and heart strict, we should do our work as belonging to best āśrama as best as possible. But the human beings tend to twist "as best as possible" in their own way. And that... When the realization comes... [break]
Prabhupāda: Do you realize that the modern civilization is misguided? [break] ...is the quintessence of Bhagavad-gītā. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. Glāniḥ. The people are misguided. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. He's Dr. Patel. He's Mr. Gupta, a railway officer. He arranged for our tickets.
Dr. Patel: You are going by plane or by car?
Prabhupāda: Train.
Dr. Patel: You are going also by train? It will be too much strain.
Prabhupāda: No, first-class is all right.
Dr. Patel: Even first-class. Because it takes more than thirty-six hours to reach...
Prabhupāda: No, twenty-four hours.
Dr. Patel: ...by car, by Calcutta from here, no? Or Kashi Express.
Mr. Gupta: Yes, sir. Twenty-four hours.
Dr. Patel: Kashi Express?
Mr. Gupta: Kashi Express. Kashi Express reaches in the morning just at one...
Dr. Patel: I had gone by Kashi Express. It reached... From here it starts in the evening, and there it reaches Allahabad in the evening.
Mr. Gupta: That is Allahabad Mail. That's Calcutta Mail. Kashi Express leaves at 6:45 in the morning with other and reaches at the same time next morning.
Prabhupāda: So we have to get the train from Dadar.
Mr. Gupta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Dadar is nearer.
Dr. Patel: It must be stopping at Thana also. No?
Mr. Gupta: We had the option of going either on 10th night or 11th morning. But we preferred 11th morning for the same reason.
Prabhupāda: 10th night means?
Mr. Gupta: By Calcutta Mail, or there's a special leaving for Allahabad. There's a special train. We are running Kumbhamela specials.
Prabhupāda: This one.
Mr. Gupta: This one is a regular train. This is Varanasi Express.
Dr. Patel: A special must not have first-class. Has it?
Mr. Gupta: Special has first-class.
Dr. Patel: That special will be better than.
Mr. Gupta: No, it won't be because it leaves on 10th night and it will only go to Naini. It won't go to Allahabad.
Dr. Patel: Isn't it faster...
Prabhupāda: And it changes. You have to change again. From Naini you have to change.
Mr. Gupta: You see, the Central Railway, we are taking people only to Naini and back. We are moving about a million passengers from this area.
Prabhupāda: From Naini they are going to the Kumbhamela.
Mr. Gupta: Naini, yes. It's a triangle. So from Naini they will go to Kumbhamela, come back to Naini, and come back this side.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice.
Dr. Patel: How far Naini is from Allahabad?
Mr. Gupta: Naini, railway stationwise is five miles from Allahabad, but people want to go to Sangamner just at the bridge at the bank of the river... [break]
Prabhupāda: It is not far away from the Sam... It is nearer. Rather, Allahabad main station is far away.
Mr. Gupta: You see, the way railways have organized it, Eastern Railway will...
Prabhupāda: So Naini, you are crossing the river or this side of the river?
Mr. Gupta: By special, we will not cross the river. By through-going trains, we will cross the river.
Dr. Patel: If you cross the river, then you go to Allahabad main station.
Mr. Gupta: So Varanasi Express will go to main station. That special would not have gone to main station. It would have caused you inconvenience.
Prabhupāda: So they will receive from Allahabad station our men?
Dr. Patel: You have to tell them to...
Hari-śauri: We'll have to telegram to Gurudāsa to tell when we're coming.

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