770108rc.bom
Morning Discussion
about Kumbhamela

January 8, 1977, Bombay
Gurudasa: ...drafts Gopala sent me, Gopala Krsna Prabhu sent me were uncashable.
Prabhupada: Why?
Gurudasa: Because he sent them first in one man's name who didn't cash them, or was instructed that he shouldn't do that, and he did by mistake. Then he sent them in my name and he sent them "account payee," and they wouldn't open an account without permission from the Reserve Bank of India. So that would have taken too long. So I've come... First I went to Calcutta, and I thought... I have the drafts. I thought maybe Gargamuni Swami could give me the laksmi, the money. But he didn't want to do it. So now I'm here. I'm going to get it this morning and go back. I wrote a complete report for you, but I'll tell it to you. As far as the location goes, the location is a little bit off. I'm not that satisfied with it, but...
Prabhupada: Where is the location?
Gurudasa: It's on what's called Gangadwip. But that's new place. It's an island that just appeared this year, splitting the Ganges in two. You know, Jushi is here, and Gangadwip is here. And the place where we were last year is here. We were here last year, Gangadwip is here, and Jushi is here. And... But I've been sending out and going out on sankirtana, so that will make up for our location. It's not so bad, but I want to paint a true picture. It's not so good, nor is it so bad. And there's thirteen tents. We have three bigas of land, sand. And we've made a tin enclosure all the way around. And we had a Swiss cottage tent for yourself. Swiss cottage means a room about this large from the end of the almirah to the wall and about this wide. And then a middle room about from here to the wall, and then another small room. But I was not satisfied with that, so I took that tent down, and when I left a day and a half ago I told Bhagavata dasa and Jagat-guru Maharaja, who are there, to erect a straw house for you, bigger. So they are, I hope, doing that. The difficulty was that we had no money, and therefore I've come and am going back. I had a few hundred dollars in traveler's checks which I cashed and gave it to them to keep going.
Prabhupada: Straw house is not good.
Gurudasa: No? What would you like? Because a straw house retains the heat during the day.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but if there is fire it will be...
Gurudasa: I see. We made a separate latrine for you and separate shower, etc. That is all enclosed. So what would you like? A big tent?
Prabhupada: I do not know, but a straw house... Is there any chance of setting, getting fire?
Gurudasa: Well, your kitchen is apart, in tin. So that... The kitchen would be safe. Otherwise why would there be any fire? The outside is also tin. There would only be your house. Now, I can make a tin house if you want, but...
Prabhupada: No, tin house will be...
Gurudasa: Not so good. Straw is the best.
Prabhupada: That is best, but fire protection-wise...
Gurudasa: Well, one thing I was thinking we can put shamiyanas on the outside of it or the inside. I looked at the other camps, and most of the big acaryas, etc., they have straw houses.
Prabhupada: Straw.
Gurudasa: Therefore I thought if they have, then you should have.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That's all right. But one gentleman wants to give us a house.
Gurudasa: Kapoor?
Prabhupada: Ha, ha. Have you seen that?
Gurudasa: No. Not yet. I've been too busy. To get to any place you have to walk. But the first thing I did, I got a...
Prabhupada: Why to walk?
Gurudasa: Well, I hired a autoscooter for the day, but there's so many things to do that since you had a place to live, I put that..., that I'm going to see it, but I didn't do it immediately. I went to see Munshi's camp though. Now, that is three miles away. That I walked to. It took one and a half hours to go.
Prabhupada: One and a half hours!
Gurudasa: From our camp. And one and a half hours back. They kept on saying, "Sida, sida! Agi, agi!" And finally I got there. And their camp is not nicer than ours. It would mean a saving of approximately...
Prabhupada: At the cost of inconvenience.
Gurudasa: But it wouldn't even save that much money, because our tents... When I got there, the one thing that was up, were our tents.
Prabhupada: Where is the Mamford(?) Gandhi? Do you know?
Gurudasa: No. At Kapoor's house. I will go and see. Also Gopala Krsna mentioned a Ghosh. I'm going to get all the addresses from Jagadisa prabhu and look into it.
Prabhupada: Oh, Dr. Ghosh.
Gurudasa: Dr. Ghosh.
Prabhupada: Dr. Ghosh is a little off.
Gurudasa: But Gopala Prabhu said that you would rather live in our camp.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurudasa: So then we'll make the best house we can for you.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Gurudasa: Now, will you have blankets with you, or should we get everything there? I'll talk to you about it later.
Prabhupada: I have got my overcoat.
Gurudasa: It's very cold. We'll...
Hari-sauri: We can discuss it.
Gurudasa: Yes. Whatever is possible. So there's a couple of other points. Number onebecause you were speaking about the devotees becoming like Ravana on the roof, we're doing our own cooking. I have our own men. And one assistant cook I hired for a hundred rupees. This assistant cook is a very nice man.
Prabhupada: Very nice.
Gurudasa: He's so submissive.
Prabhupada: I can cook my food in fifteen minutes, in so many varieties.
Gurudasa: You used to do that.
Prabhupada: Not fifteen, forty-five.
Gurudasa: You used to do that in your cooker.
Prabhupada: I yesterday... Yesterday I did, and it was so nice. Everyone appreciated.
Gurudasa: Accha. Well, you can do whatever you like. The cooks wanted things like 4,500 rupees with pots, and I said, "This is outrageous!" So, no. So now our own men...
Prabhupada: 4,500?
Hari-sauri: To hire a cook, hire some cooks, they want that much money.
Gurudasa: Everyone is cheating for the Mela. So I said, "No, no." So I said to our men, "We must do it." So I think we'll be able to do it. I preached to them.
Prabhupada: No, last year we were doing ourselves, our Swami... Who...?
Gurudasa: Who was that?
Prabhupada: He's well-known swami. I forget his name. Was in England?
Hari-sauri: Revatinandana?
Prabhupada: Revatinandana. No, Revatinandana. Yes, Revati...
Hari-sauri: He was in England.
Gurudasa: He was cooking. He's a good cook.
Prabhupada: He has cooked very nice.
Gurudasa: Anyway, I have three men cooking now and... So that will be all right. Now, the officials are cooperating with us nicely, of the Mela. The other day Kamalapati Tripati was there, and we saw him, and all the officials were there, and he said, "Oh, hello! How are you? Everything all right?" And we said, "Yes." And it was a very nice conversation. And all the other officials saw that we were on friendly basis with the minister, so they were also more friendly. One unfortunate thing happened, a small unfortunate thing, a sukhi-duhkhi. We went to the sangam with our kirtana party during the time of the big..., the fifth bath. It's not the biggest one, but many pilgrims came. And we said we should chant and also bathe. So first we chanted. Then we went in for bath at four o'clock in the morning. Very refreshing, very nice. We went in, and we had our bath. Then we put our clothes on. We chanted, and we were very happy chanting. The police came, many police on horses, and said, "Get out!" And they were demons, like "Get out!" And I got a press pass. I said, "Why should we get out? We're only here to chant the holy names of God. This is a Mela." "Well, then," he said, "get out!" He's a demon, and he's taking his horse and pushing it on me and the other devotees. So he forced us out. So Bhagavata dasa went to the Mela officials who we had some..., and complained. And the policeman was suspended and made a public apology. And now we have a letter that says we can chant any place we want in the Mela with police cooperation.
Prabhupada: Then it is fortunate, fortunate.
Gurudasa: Yes, very good. A blessing in disguise, yes. So they're trying to organize. There's many bhangis who pick up the stool.
Prabhupada: The place is nice then.
Gurudasa: Oh, yes. And I cut down the pandal size. Originally the pandal was 100 by 150, 100 feet wide. But I saw that were going to emphasize sankirtana and I measured that 120 by 75 was adequate.
Prabhupada: Our visitors, they have got facility to come?
Gurudasa: Yes. We have Life Member tents, and some visitors have been coming. I have been receiving them. So we have... There's one thing I wanted to ask you. A lot of youths are coming, Western youths, some hippies, but mostly clean. Some hippies. But there are two hippies, and I saw what they were like, and I didn't allow them to stay. But mostly our camp is... Until the devotees come, there are some tents that are empty. So they said, "We need a place to stay. Is it all right?" So I said, "Tonight you can stay. Then I'll let you know later on." And we preached to them. We have a morning program there, and we have an evening program. So they attended. So I thought with your permission I could erect some tents, not in our living area... The chokidhars I put outside, right on the gate, because I didn't think they should live in our area, but they should be there, so the chokidhars have a tent. I thought behind the pandal I could erect some tents, or even behind our tin where people wouldn't see them so much, we could invite some guests, charge them something for living and preach to them.
Prabhupada: Hm. But they smoke.
Gurudasa: Yes, some will.
Prabhupada: That is bad.
Gurudasa: So, I mean it's up to... I'm asking what you think.
Prabhupada: They will drink; they will smoke; they will not take bath. These are the defects. These people are unclean.
Gurudasa: Yes. Suppose they are willing...
Prabhupada: It will spoil the cleanliness of the...
Gurudasa: Of course, they would not be in our camp.
Prabhupada: It may be. But their, that association is very undesirable.
Gurudasa: Yes, Yes. What if someone is willing to follow the regulations?
Prabhupada: First they should be shaved, clean-shaved. Will they accept that? They must take early in the water, take bath. Cleanliness.
Gurudasa: No, they won't do. So I won't have that. I just thought it was a preaching opportunity.
Prabhupada: Preaching, if there is not clean even, what they will understand?
Gurudasa: Well, when I came, I was not clean either. By your grace I cleaned up.
Hari-sauri: They won't clean up.
Gurudasa: No, no. I accept what, you know. I want to do...
Prabhupada: People may not misunderstand that "This is hippie camp."
Gurudasa: Yes. The police were sending, and I went to the Mela officials...
Prabhupada: Therefore the police came. They thought that you are hippies.
Gurudasa: No, I don't think, because this was before they came.
Prabhupada: Anyway, their association is not good.
Gurudasa: Yes. So we won't have, definitely not.
Hari-sauri: We have to make a good impression.
Prabhupada: Yes, that people may not think, "This is another edition of hippies."
Gurudasa: So we won't have at all. Now we have a general list of when everyone's big programs are.
Prabhupada: Many are coming? Hippies?
Gurudasa: There's a lot. There's a lot. Well, yes, there's a lot.
Prabhupada: So you consult amongst yourselves, but people may not have a bad impression.
Gurudasa: I think I will not do it because if you think there's any small chance of them associating with us...
Prabhupada: Alpa-chidre. A small... White, white cloth and a small black spot, it becomes prominent.
Gurudasa: So we won't do it. We can try and preach to them at other place. Because we're going out on sankirtana many times. We're getting a list of all the other programs in the Mela, so we'll take our sankirtana parties where it's going to be prominent and pass out literature. Now, for the meeting, for the resolution, I thought perhaps on the 16th or the 17th, because it is close to the big bathing day on the 14th and it won't conflict that much with other programs.
Prabhupada: Meeting means all other sadhus, they will meet?
Gurudasa: Yes. I'm getting invitations printed up, and then we can write their names in, and I want to make the invitation something personal, like "This is a meeting of utmost importance."
Prabhupada: So that, some Swami Chand?
Hari-sauri: Chandra Swami, minister for Air India. He's supposed to be wanting to see Prabhupada. He's coming to the Mela.
Gurudasa: I'll look into that. You told me last time.
Hari-sauri: Is Indira Gandhi coming?
Gurudasa: There's an unofficial rumor that Indira Gandhi's going to come. Speaking of politicians, I did some research on Tarun Kanti for the letter, and he's very preoccupied now, and Gargamuni Swami told me that he doesn't want to have anything to do with foreign funds.
Prabhupada: Foreign funds.
Gurudasa: In other words, that letter would say, "I would oversee this." On the other hand, there's a man from CARE who went to our camp and was very impressed with the food program. I thought we could get a letter from him, because Germany knows CARE and they don't know Tarun Kanti Gosh from the dobi.
Prabhupada: No.
Gurudasa: So I thought CARE would be good, so Abhirama Prabhu is trying for that. Also I saw C. L. Bijaya yesterday when I was waiting to come here, and he was very happy to see me. And he said by your inspiration, "I want to give you that room downstairs."
Prabhupada: Which room?
Gurudasa: That room at the bottom.
Prabhupada: Oh, that will solve our great problem.
Gurudasa: Yes. They said... Abhirama says he's been trying for months for that room. So C. L. yesterday said that, "Yes, I want to give that. My brothers want that room, and my office wants the room, but I want you to have it." So the meeting was last night, and Abhirama is coming to the Kumbhamela. We'll know for sure when he comes. So that might be some good news.
Prabhupada: That is very good. There our men suffer very much. If that room is available, then it is very good.
Gurudasa: They made a... Abhirama made a bathroom. He put four tanks on the top, and there's running water in that bathroom.
Prabhupada: In our side?
Gurudasa: In the one we have.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Gurudasa: So that's somewhat of an improvement.
Prabhupada: Yes, why not? Improvement can be done. There is space. Anyway, if we get the down room, it will solve a problem. What is the rent?
Gurudasa: One thousand.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Gurudasa: But C. L. said he would pay.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is very kind of him.
Gurudasa: We will see...
Prabhupada: Yes, we will be his guest. He will pay rent. That's all right. Very good.
Gurudasa: So anyway, he said it verbally. We'll see when Abhirama comes. I think he'll do it.
Prabhupada: He's gentleman.
Gurudasa: Yes, he is. He's offering all his prasada, and he's following ekadasi. And he told me yesterday... He showed me a picture of Radha and Krsna and yourself. And he said he sleeps on his back, and he puts it on his heart.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Accha.
Gurudasa: So he has your picture in his room, etc. So he appreciates.
Prabhupada: That is nice.
Gurudasa: So... Let's see. What else. I've saved some money by cutting down fences and pandal already, and not hiring these cooks.
Prabhupada: Gargamuni said somebody has paid ten thousand.
Hari-sauri: There was supposed to be some man who was going to give five thousand or ten thousand rupees.
Gurudasa: For food relief or...?
Prabhupada: I do not know.
Hari-sauri: For something.
Gurudasa: There's one man who paid for a tent, life member. And Gargamuni Maharaja gave me ten thousand rupees for food relief yesterday. Now...
Prabhupada: Oh. Then that... I was... He got ten thousand rupees.
Gurudasa: He gave it to me yesterday. I have it right here.
Prabhupada: What about Saurabha?
Devotee (1): He called last night from Delhi.
Prabhupada: Oh. He's there in Delhi?
Devotee (1): Yes. He just came back yesterday. He'll be coming here soon.
Gurudasa: Now, previously the budget... I figured it out with the ones who are cooking. You wanted puris and halava and subji, something like that. But we didn't have enough before. So I was going to make puspanna. Is that all right? Or would you rather... Now, with the ten thousand rupees...
Prabhupada: Puspanna for visitors also? No, they will have objection to take anna. They'll take puri, sak, halava.
Gurudasa: What do you want?
Prabhupada: Puri, sak, halava is... It can be distributed to anyone. Puspanna, some may take, some may not take.
Hari-sauri: There's some special reason?
Gurudasa: Well, it is due to our budget.
Prabhupada: No, budget not. The puri-sak is pakka, and puspanna is kaccha. They think like that. That kaccha, there is distinction of jata. One jata, one caste, will not take other caste anna. That is Indian thinking. But puri-sak, everyone.
Gurudasa: But also everyone was serving...
Prabhupada: Puri-sak will be cheaper, I think.
Gurudasa: Whatever you like. They said...
Prabhupada: I don't like, but if you distribute, must be acceptable to everyone.
Gurudasa: Everyone is serving, that is serving, capati and dahl.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Gurudasa: But everyone is serving that already. That's another reason I thought that puspanna would be nice because it would be unique.
Prabhupada: No, I have no objection. That is all right. But puri-sak is better. Is it costly?
Gurudasa: More costly, yes. And I told him to make a list for you to see, if you need it, why it's more costly. At any rate, he says... The cook has done research, our man, and says puri-sak would be more costly.
Prabhupada: But don't allow him to purchase.
Hari-sauri: Don't you have an Indian purchaser?
Prabhupada: Who is purchasing?
Gurudasa: No, he's not an Indian. He's one of our men.
Prabhupada: Oh. That is another thing.
Gurudasa: Our men are purchasing.
Prabhupada: Oh. Then it is all right.
Gurudasa: Two of them go together, and they've given me complete receipts. I said, "If you cannot get a receipt, give me a kaccha receipt. If you cannot get a pakka, give me kaccha receipt written by someone else. So anyway, we'll try and do puri-sak.
Prabhupada: Puri-sak, always simple. And if you add with that, some puri and some this puspanna, that can be done. But generally they are taking sak, roti-sak, dahl.
Gurudasa: The devotees, yes.
Prabhupada: And rice also? No.
Gurudasa: Once a day.
Prabhupada: That's nice. Above all, manage. That's all right, nicely. The foodstuff must be palatable. That should not be rubbish thing.
Gurudasa: No. How are we going to feed others if we are not feeding the devotees nicely?
Prabhupada: Yes. Now, yesterday we made simple cooking. How it was nice.
Gurudasa: We're making soup at night, simple soup, and devotees like it 'cause it's not hurting their digestion. And I'm having some flat rice on hand for anyone who needs it. So, I'm trying to care for everything.
Prabhupada: There is milk supply? No.
Gurudasa: Yes. We have one man from Vrndavana who's bringing milk at 2.70 a kilo, a little costly, but Mela time, and they have to bring it from a far distance. Anyway, 2.70, kilo, cow's milk.
Prabhupada: Cow's milk...
Hari-sauri: They say. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Cow's milk means buffalo with water.
Gurudasa: With a little bit of the newspaper inside also.
Prabhupada: Accha.
Gurudasa: For to put, to make it look like cream, they put newspaper also.
Hari-sauri: Make it thick. They grind paper. You have to strain it before you drink it.
Gurudasa: But I... We tasted it. We came to the conjoint opinion that it was passable.
Prabhupada: Less newspaper. (laughter) So why such milk should be taken, with newspaper?
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, in the Muslim countries, the Muslims, they feed the cows fish, dried fish. And the Hindus will not take the local milk there.
Prabhupada: Where?
Devotee (1): Because the Muslims are feeding the cows dried fish, and the milk is smelling like fish even. There's no grass for them to eat there in this Arabia, so they're feeding them dried fish, like in a soup. Hindus will not take the milk there even because of that.
Gurudasa: So do you think I should organize this meeting with Chandra Swami also, taking some part in organizing? Or just meet him to get him to see you. Not any special, but I mean to say that he knows the situation. He can...
Prabhupada: Or if he wants to see, he may come. He may find out.
Gurudasa: Yes. He should come to see you. I'm arranging for your car to come from Delhi. We've made two roads of steel, of steel pieces. That's what they're using in the Mela on the sand. And I've gotten permission from the head of the Mela to take some of that. So we're making two rastas, one especially for you, where shamiyana comes out, and it doesn't look like a road, but when you come in, just untie that, and your car goes in. And then another one behind. So that will be able to keep any vehicles that come. One bus came already. Hamsaduta Maharaja's one bus.
Prabhupada: He has come.
Gurudasa: No, he hasn't. But he sent some men.
Hari-sauri: He is coming, though, I think. That's what we were told.
Gurudasa: He's expected. I saw Acyutananda Maharaja yesterday. He's coming. I don't know if Gargamuni is going to come or not.
Prabhupada: Why?
Gurudasa: He says his health isn't good. I don't know if he wants to come. I think he just likes to distribute books.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Hari-sauri: What about Gurukrpa?
Gurudasa: I think they'll all come.
Hari-sauri: Gurukrpa's in Mayapura.
Prabhupada: Oh. So there is facility for exchanging dollars?
Gurudasa: Yes. I'm trying to cash this draft. I went to three banks, and as I say, I had some traveler's checks, and because there was no money there I cashed my own traveler's checks and left it with them, so they... You want dollars into rupees? Yes, that's possible.
Prabhupada: What is the rate?
Gurudasa: It was 8.78 the other day. It fluctuates from day to day, but 8.78.
Prabhupada: That is good rate, 8.70...
Gurudasa: Better than before. That was for traveler's checks. It may be slightly less for cash.
Hari-sauri: Yes. Traveler's checks are always higher.
Gurudasa: So I'm going back today. As soon as Gopala Krsna gives me the laksmi, money, I'll go back. Bhagavata's doing a very nice job.
Prabhupada: We have to go to Orissa, Bhuvanesvara, afterwards.
Gurudasa: Yes, I heard you were planning to go. Gargamuni says it's good for the health.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Gurudasa: Yes, he has about three or four places he was naming that are very good. He's going because his health, he says, isn't good.
Prabhupada: So let him go to Bhuvanesvara. Orissa is good for health?
Gurudasa: Yes, he says.
Prabhupada: Then that's why. Let him come to Bhuvanesvara, and I want to start a temple.
Gurudasa: Yes. Your health is...?
Prabhupada: From yesterday it is good.
Gurudasa: 'Cause you cooked for yourself.
Prabhupada: No. Because I could eat little.
Gurudasa: What did you cook?
Prabhupada: Just rice, dahl, and vegetable. That's all, nothing extraordinary.
Gurudasa: And you put lot of spice in it or not?
Prabhupada: No.
Gurudasa: So that's the secret. If someone cooks for themselves... Why don't you direct it but not cook?
Prabhupada: Yes, I'm directing and nobody learns.
Gurudasa: I can learn.
Prabhupada: Everyone can see. It is...
Gurudasa: There's no... Your health must be pakka. So we have separate kitchen for you, separate kitchen for life members. Gargamuni Maharaja is sending his Shantilal, his cook.
Prabhupada: Cooking is being done with wood? That's nice. That is very good.
Gurudasa: Yes, very nice. And in the morning, the first morning... When I went there, actually nothing was happening very much. So the first morning... It's so cold, the devotees were just staying in their blankets. So I got up at four o'clock and bathed and started a fire. And I said, "It's warmer here than in your tent. Come around the fire."
Prabhupada: Yes, and around the fire, it is very warm.
Gurudasa: And it was a trick. And they came around the fire, and then we had samsara prayers, and then I said, "Now stay here and chant." So they chanted. Then I gave class. Pandal is simple. I have not spent elaborately on it.
Prabhupada: No, why? There is no need.
Gurudasa: And we're having display, book table, membership table, and cinema is showing at night.
Prabhupada: So how people come?
Gurudasa: Some people come, but I think once we start our sankirtana and leaflets... The mela officials said, "We put you there because you will draw, and others will not. People will want to come to you, so they will make an effort to come to you."
Prabhupada: But there is easy way to come?
Gurudasa: It's not that difficult. It's just a little distant. Some people were coming. Cars can come also. If they want to come, they can come. It's not far, but it's not so close. I wanted to give you a proper picture. I didn't want...
Prabhupada: No, our former camp, last time...? So this is not so good?
Gurudasa: Location was better. But our living is better this time. Living is better, but location was better last time.
Prabhupada: That location cannot be had. What is the reason?
Gurudasa: Well, first of all, when I came they already settled it up. There's nothing I can do, you know. I said immediately, "This is not such a good location." And Bhagavata said, "I did not know. I saw it on the map. I had no experience." So I didn't blame him because he didn't know. So they said that "You will draw people, and so we thought we would put others..." I think it is political.
Hari-sauri: "You draw more people, so you can go out of the way."
Prabhupada: Political?
Gurudasa: Yes. I think that many people were pushing for good positions, and we did not push, and... Last year was good, but, of course, the sangam has shifted a little. The sangam has shifted to the island where we are. The governor's camp is on the island. And there's some people. Maharishi is on the island. It's just I didn't want to say it's a wonderful location and then you come there and see that it's a little bit far off. I wanted to tell you...
Prabhupada: Only it is far off.
Gurudasa: And there's another slight defect, which is that it's underneath a railway bridge.
Prabhupada: Railway bridge?
Gurudasa: But with all the things that are going on, you can't even hear the trains. Now everyone's starting with... And we have the biggest microphones in the whole Mela. Everyone's got microphones this big. And speakers? Speakers? Ours is this big. We've got the biggest ones, six of them, to point in all directions. So that... We thought we would make up for the distance. I thought I would make up by big speakers. We told Kamalapati Tripati that, "Yes, we are living underneath one of your railway bridges," and he laughed.
Prabhupada: Ah, he's railway member. So railway bridge there is sound.
Gurudasa: Yes, but... When trains come by there is sound. Yes, there is sound.
Hari-sauri: There is electricity?
Gurudasa: There will be, yes.
Hari-sauri: Big power points.
Gurudasa: Yes. There will be two in Prabhupada's and two on the pandal.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Gurudasa: Electricity, he wanted to know. The thing is there's also sound with bicycles going. Bicycles also go across that bridge. So there's some sound. Not during the high afternoon, because people don't go out. And not during very early morning, but during the day there is. What do you think?
Prabhupada: How can I think unless I see? [break]
Hari-sauri: If it's not suitable at the camp, Prabhupada can go to the house at night and the camp in the day.
Gurudasa: Yes. Even during the day he doesn't have to go except for darsana.
Prabhupada: All right. Whatever you say.
Gurudasa: Your area is completely enclosed, though, from the rest. [break]
Prabhupada: Where is this? One and a half hour?
Gurudasa: One and a half hours. It is on the edge of Jushi, past, way past the first pontoon bridge.
Prabhupada: Pontoon bridge.
Gurudasa: But they put up some more pontoon bridges also this year. Very far off. Actually, there's not very much near there. He wanted to be far off because they don't do any preaching. And we wanted to be right in the middle.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is their purpose?
Gurudasa: Their purpose is feeding a small group of sadhus that are in that area who want to be far off. Ekadandi. And they feed... The prasadam is good, that they give. He was correct. They are giving capatis and dhal to everyone.
Prabhupada: Eating must be very nice, clean.
Gurudasa: Yes. And respectable. We'll do it. [break]
Prabhupada: I thought we could save the expenditure. But that is not possible.
Gurudasa: No, we wouldn't actually save so much because the time it would take for the devotees to go there to eat prasadam is three hours, and then the tents are not so good. It would mean a savings of six hundred or eight hundred rupees on tents, and it's completely impractical.
Prabhupada: And besides that, the Mayavadis... Eh? Inconvenience.
Gurudasa: Yes. And they would not appreciate our preaching all the time.
Gurudasa: If they have a similar verse to that, then they would be very unhappy.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Gurudasa: I'm saying if they had, "Do not hear personalists' bhasya," they would become very unhappy.
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...that within the Krsna's mouth there are millions of brahmandas, they think it is simply fictitious. Doctor, saheb, you are feeling all right?
Dr. Patel: No, I just ran. I ran a little, so I...
Prabhupada: Oh, so why don't you sit down?
Gurudasa: Srila Prabhupada, would you like to have an elephant to ride on one day?
Prabhupada: Why? (laughter)
Gurudasa: I heard, one of these "Prabhupada saids" from one of the devotees that you said that "If they can ride an elephant, can you get one for me?" Some devotees said that you saw another sadhu riding on the elephant, and you asked him, "Can you arrange like that for me?"
Prabhupada: (laughing) That was joking.
Gurudasa: Yes. 'Cause last time, in 1972, you and I were walking, and you saw the sadhus on the elephant, and you said, "I would put Radha and Krsna there." I remember it very well. You said, "I would not sit there."
Prabhupada: What is the use? (laughter) It goes like this. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Other sadhus I don't think.
Gurudasa: No, others are. Processions. It is a procession thing. The nagas take them into the river.
Prabhupada: When there was no car, elephant had some importance. And now they have got so many cars. [break]
Dr. Patel: Camels were used as they are now, for ...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Gurudasa: They still do.
Dr. Patel: They're better than the horses, don't get tired earlier. From Vrndavana to Delhi the camels were running. They used (Hindi). I don't know what they call it in Bengali.
Prabhupada: My Guru Maharaja purchased two camels. I did not... I do not know what happened, but he purchased.
Gurudasa: I think Tirtha Maharaja was fighting with someone else over them.
Prabhupada: No, it is long ago.
Dr. Patel: We have a story in Mahabharata that all Ataravart, he can do. The Hastinapura in just when Abhimanyu was going for fight. In those days they were using camels.
Gurudasa: In Rajastan they use widely.
Dr. Patel: Rajastan is a desert.
Prabhupada: No, Vrndavana quarter there are many camels.
Dr. Patel: Everywhere there is camel.
Gurudasa: They're using camels at the Mela. For carrying things they're using camels now.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Camels have long legs, you know. They go faster than... Don't get tired as the horses do.
Gurudasa: In the West they are called "ships of the desert."
Hari-sauri: They have wild camels in Australia even. They used to use them in the desert.
Prabhupada: Wherever there is desert, there is thorn twig and camels.
Dr. Patel: Both. I think Australian desert is bigger than Indian desert, much bigger, as big as Sahara perhaps.
Gurudasa: Desert means deserted.
Devotee (1): I went to Makrana, Srila Prabhupada, and I saw they had them hitched for plowing.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dr. Patel: Camels are used for plowing even in Gujarat.
Trivikrama: And they eat the thorny twigs.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is their food. Karmis, they are compared with the camels. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19].
Dr. Patel: I don't think, sir, there will be camels in Bengal because in Bengal is so many rivers.
Prabhupada: No. No, there is no camel. And unless there is that thorny twig, they cannot live. That is their food.
Dr. Patel: In Gujarat you find these camels right at the Surat, south of the Gujarat. In north Gujarat they are very common. On the desert. [break]
Prabhupada: ...Darjeeling we were hiring these ho.... [break]
Gurudasa: (whispers) Tape always runs out on places like that. (Hari-sauri laughs)
Prabhupada: Mules, I have seen, if they stop, you can beat like anything; still, it will not move.
Gurudasa: Yes. "Stubborn as a mule" is a proverb in the West.
Prabhupada: I have seen. The soldiers are beating with the butts of the gunstill (laughter) not going. So many varieties of life we had to pass through, and with great fortune we get this human form of body. And that also we waste in the same businesspunah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], misguided. Labdhva sudurlabham idam bahu-sambhavante [SB 11.9.29]. After many, many births this human formpeople do not understand. Sudurlabham. Durlabham means rare, and sudurlabham means still...
Dr. Patel: More rare.
Prabhupada: But the rascals, they do not take it very seriously. They think...
Dr. Patel: Such mules,(?) like me. Aneka-janma samsiddha sayati paramam gatim.
Prabhupada: Sudurlabham. Sudurlabha: it is not very easily obtainable. Labdhva manusyam. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan... [SB 7.6.1], durlabham manusya... Prahlada Maharaja says. Somewhere sudurlabham, somewhere durlabham. Durlabham manusyam. There is no education about the importance of manusya janma. They have taken it that we shall die once. Who says that once born, once we get the..., this and then finished? "Once life got." Some...?
Hari-sauri: Sometimes there's an advertisement in the papers, "You only live once, so buy this." They were selling... It was a land advertisement.
Prabhupada: These rascals, they invent their theories. Krsna says, tatha dehantara praptir, and these rascals says "Once." Just see.
Dr. Patel: The rascals have also realized now that there is a dehantara-praptir because the parapsychology has proved beyond doubt so many examples recently, at present, that there is a rebirth. People who are reborn and know their past births. They have recognized their parents, their places and secret things also. There was a patient in Rajastan. One was in Northwest India. There was one in South America. They were all published in medical bulletins.
Gurudasa: People accept them?
Dr. Patel: Gradually.
Prabhupada: Medical science do not accept the soul. Then how it is possible, next birth?
Dr. Patel: They have to accept. In the teaching of physiology, what we call certain vital forces which we don't understand, they are, this is nothing but God there. What is vital force? What is vital force? It's the soul, sir.
Prabhupada: Vague idea. Not clear.
Dr. Patel: They will become clear later on. Slowly, slowly, the cloud is clearing away from them.
Prabhupada: No, when... There is clear idea already. Nothing is going to happen, but because they are less intelligent, therefore next stage is when their intelligence will happen. Things are already there.
Dr. Patel: The greatest scientist of the world, Einstein, was a great believer in God, and he was a moral just like a rsi.
Prabhupada: Yes. I have seen his picture.
Dr. Patel: His behavior was that of a sadhu.
Gurudasa: Simple. He lived simply.
Dr. Patel: Not only simply, but he never worried much about things. When he was asked in Christian university how much money he would want paid when first migrated to America, he said, "What is the standard of living here?" (indistinct)
Trivikrama: But still, the tendency... Kali-yuga means their tendency is away from...
Dr. Patel: It is Kali-yuga for all of us, for the good and the bad.
Prabhupada: Kali-yuga means mandah. Mandah-two meaning. One is "slow"; another meaning is "bad." So mandah sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya [SB 1.1.10]. Four times this word used: mandah, sumanda-matayo, manda-bhagya.
Dr. Patel: But one thing about Kali-yuga is that by doing small amount of good work or doing little bhakti, it has a greater amount of benefit than you would get otherwise in Satya-yuga, Dvapara or Treta. Is it not, sir? No...
Prabhupada: Good work or bad work, you have to enjoy, good or bad.
Dr. Patel: But in Kali-yuga a little bhakti will do much good than a good amount of tapah in Satya-yuga, thousands or millions of years.
Prabhupada: Bhakti is different. Bhakti is transcendental. It has nothing to do with this material world. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato. That is bhakti. And karma, if you do good, you'll get good result, and if you do bad, you'll get bad result.
Dr. Patel: But if you are attached to the karma... When a person is attached...
Prabhupada: No, attached or not attached, if you touch fire it will burn. That's all. This is karma. If you... Just like child touches fire. It doesn't matter whether he is child or not; fire's business is to burn. Karmana. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. So karma, subha-subha saba bhaktir baddha. Caitanya-caritamrta. Subha karma or a subha karma, they are all hindrances to spiritual progress. In material world, good and bad, both are the same. Dvaite bhadrabhadra sakali samana. Bhadra and abhadra. Bhadra means good; abhadra means bad. Sakali samana ei bhala, ei mandasaba 'manodharma.. "This is good, this is bad"they are simply mental concoction. So Mr. Kapoor has sent one letter to take the key.
Gurudasa: From where?
Hari-sauri: Kumbhamela.
Prabhupada: From that house.
Gurudasa: Jagadisa Prabhu can show me.
Prabhupada: Jagadisa has got that letter. So people are enthusiastic there about this Mela? People are coming now?
Gurudasa: Yes.
Prabhupada: How many men are found there?
Gurudasa: When I was leaving there was about eighty thousand.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Gurudasa: But they expect ten million. That's the estimate. Many camps, many pandals.
Prabhupada: And store, supplies, everything is...
Gurudasa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Road is nice.
Gurudasa: It's being improved. In some spots it's nice. But because it's on sand they have to always keep it wet and they put metal plates down. They're trying to do it very well.
Prabhupada: There is a Maghmela committee. One magistrate is the head. A regular committee for managing this Mela.
Gurudasa: We have contact with this committee.
Prabhupada: And where is governor's camp from our?
Gurudasa: I don't know exactly, but it's in the same island. I'll find out.
Prabhupada: No, there is... Our governor is Krsna. Sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29].
Dr. Patel: All the Britishers were organizing this Mela, Kumbha.
Prabhupada: No, in... They were taking... The committee... I said that, "We have committee?" This is British time. One magistrate is the head and assistants, so many.
Dr. Patel: The government officers may not be getting any interest, only the Hindu officials, these British officers.
Prabhupada: No. Our government, they have to manage so many people. The Nagas... I learned it from Bhagavatam.
Dr. Patel: Nagas come from Assam, no?
Prabhupada: Yes. Arjuna married the Naga king's daughter. And he had a son.
Dr. Patel: Babhruvahana.
Prabhupada: No, Babhruvahana is Manipur.
Dr. Patel: Ilavan.
Prabhupada: Ilavan, yes.
Dr. Patel: Ilavan was the son of Nagas.
Prabhupada: Nagakanya.
Dr. Patel: Ilavan, Abhimanyu and Babhruvahana. These were the outstanding sons of Arjuna.
Gurudasa: He was a great fighter?
Prabhupada: Yes, they were ksatriyas.
Dr. Patel: He did in the war.
Prabhupada: Babhruvahana was adopted by his grandfather. That is called putrika, putrika-putra, "daughter's son adopted as son." So our Dr. Svarupa Damodara belongs to this family, Babhruvahana family. His title is Singh. That means ksatriya. And they are Vaisnavas for the last five thousand years or more than that.
Dr. Patel: Now all the Nagas have turned into Christians. Only fifty years back they were headhunters. Fifty years back Nagas of Assam were more or less like cannibals.
Prabhupada: No, the headhunters means they were killing?
Dr. Patel: Yes. They would take revenge by cutting the head of the enemy.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is... Why they are blamed? Everyone is doing that. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Africans also do that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurudasa: Their uniqueness is that they display the head on a spear.
Prabhupada: Oh. Any head.
Dr. Patel: And they dance, even as they do in Africa. Nagas are very much civilized now.
Prabhupada: Civilized?
Dr. Patel: In this way...
Prabhupada: No, they were civilized. Otherwise...
Dr. Patel: Western civilization, I mean to say.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, how Arjuna could marry?
Dr. Patel: Fourth-class civilization. In Naga races there is polyandry, sir. One woman can...
Prabhupada: Still there are, in Himalayan hills. One woman has got five husbands.
Dr. Patel: Because they have got shortage of men.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the system is there. I think in America also.
Dr. Patel: No, no. America, secret polyandry.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, one woman may have more than one husband. Is it not?
Gurudasa: Sometimes. Not legally.
Dr. Patel: That is why I said "secret" polyandry. This is official. Some of the Himalayan and Katwa, they... One brother marries and then she becomes the wife of two, three brothers. That is legal.
Prabhupada: No... In here also the system was if one is childless, husband is dead or could not produce, she can take help of the husband's brothers. Devarena sutotpati: with the help of husband's brother to get child.
Trivikrama: But in Kali-yuga that's been...
Prabhupada: That is forbidden. Kalau panca vivarjayet [Cc. Adi 17.164].
Dr. Patel: And these children were raised (indistinct). Very scientific way.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, in Mayapura we see so many pilgrims coming from Assam, Nagaland and Manipur. They're having this Vaisnava tilaka, Gaudiya-Vaisnava tilaka, and they also worship Caitanya Mahaprabhu. How is that influence also there?
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu went there.
Devotee (1): He went to Manipur then.
Gurudasa: Wasn't it one of the times he was going to Vrndavana but didn't go, then He went to Manipur? Is that correct?
Prabhupada: I do not know. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to go and preach in eastern Bengal. And His original paternal house is in Sylhet.
Dr. Patel: It is in Assam.
Prabhupada: Yes. His forefathers from Sylhet. Jagannatha Misra, His father came from Sylhet to Navadvipa for studying. Then Nilambara Cakravarti got him married with his daughter, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mother. And he resided in Nabadwip.
Gurudasa: There's one temple in Vrndavana where they have Deities of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda that look like Manipur. They made His eyes like that.
Prabhupada: That is not so good. If you make any picture, then you paint according to the people's, local people's feature. Kata catur anana, mani mani yavat. Vidyapati. You have heard the name of Vidyapati? He was a great poet of Darbhanga.
Dr. Patel: Vrndavana?
Prabhupada: No, no. Darbhanga, the entrance to Bengal from Bihar.
Dr. Patel: Darbhanga. Door to Bengal.
Prabhupada: Hardwar. "Door to Hari." Dwar means gate.
Gurudasa: Someone invited me last year to Hardwar for the Kumbha, and I said, "Why should I go to the door when I live in the house?" I was in Vrndavana.
Prabhupada: We are not interested with the door. You are doormen, dvar-men. We are inmates. That Vidyapati has sung, kata catur anana, mari mari yavata. Catur anana means Brahma. They also die. And kata means "how many." (pause) So what is the amount of the bank that he transferred?
Devotee (1): Twenty-five thousand rupees.
Prabhupada: But I heard, it was thirty-five?
Devotee (1): There was originally three fixed deposits. One of them was broken six months ago. We used it, BBT. So there was two remaining left for twenty-five. Originally there was thirty-six, and then one was broken. That's already been accounted for.
Prabhupada: And our Madras center is now closed?
Devotee (1): Yes. There's no center there now. Mahamsa Swami, he's sending two men there regularly to help set...
Prabhupada: Collect.
Devotee (1): ... members..., collect.
Prabhupada: Kata catur anana, mari mari yavata, na tuya ari avasana. You have seen Russian publication? Easy Journey to Other Planets. They have printed.
Gurudasa: They're going to distribute it on that train that goes into Russia. By the way, Srigarbha came to me and said, "I'm sorry for all your difficulty. I wanted to preach in Poland again." That boy? So he's going to deposit his wife and go to Poland.
Prabhupada: Deposit where?
Gurudasa: He wants to do it in Florida.
Prabhupada: Yes, Florida is nice place.
Gurudasa: Because he feels she's protected there. I said, "You'll feel that she is protected there, and then you'll have a free mind to preach?" And he said, "Yes, rather than in Europe." So I said, "All right." In your letter you wrote, "Let it go for now." Again you saw the future. "Let it go for now." Then he came.
Prabhupada: So we shall go down? No.
Hari-sauri: No, but we can. We have ten minutes still.
Dr. Patel: You're too early, sir. Ten minutes more. Fifty-six, six fifty-six. You go after seven, five.
Prabhupada: There is walking facility?
Gurudasa: Oh, yes.
Dr. Patel: Water must be extremely cold.
Gurudasa: No. No. In the morning the air is cold, but the water is warm, warmer than the air, very nice.
Prabhupada: Yes. The earlier you take bath, it is warm.
Dr. Patel: Once you dip inside. Otherwise it is chilly.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Gurudasa: It's very nice. The tap water also. Either in the river or in the tap, it's warmer. You must come and try it.
Dr. Patel: You bring me water from... (Prabhupada chuckles) I don't mind coming. Whereas returning it will be difficult for me. You people will be returning after ten, fifteen days. I must come after two, three (indistinct)... Traffic will be so heavy that I may not get even...
Gurudasa: No, you can come and go as you like and you can be our guest. Because people are coming but not going, it was easy to go out. Everyone was coming, but no one was going. You can go out easy. We have a nice tent for you, warm water in the morning.
Dr. Patel: Is there sufficient number of trains to the Mela?
Gurudasa: We're putting extra trains.
Prabhupada: From the Mela the train starting?
Gurudasa: Yes. Some going.
Prabhupada: There is some temporary station.
Gurudasa: Yes. And they're even making a temporary airport from the 14th on.
Prabhupada: Where?
Gurudasa: In Allahabad.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dr. Patel: Allahabad has got an airport already.
Gurudasa: Yes, but it doesn't function regularly. But now they're going to have planes going and coming.
Prabhupada: Formerly there was airport. The place is called Babroli.
Dr. Patel: You must have seen all these places. You lived there for twenty years.
Gurudasa: Thirteen or twenty years?
Prabhupada: Thirteen years.
Dr. Patel: That is sufficient long time to know a place. At that time what was the population of Allahabad? About ten lakhs?
Prabhupada: No, not so.
Dr. Patel: No, less than that. Ahmedabad was only four lakhs' population before. Now it is twenty lakhs.
Prabhupada: Everywhere the population is increased. Why?
Dr. Patel: People have more interest because of the industrialization.
Gurudasa: They attract people. They think they will be happy in the city.
Dr. Patel: Not that. Because they get more easy jobs in the city. You see, jobs.
Gurudasa: How can they get jobs easy, when so many people are lying on the...
Dr. Patel: It is at least they can have some food. In the small villages they're not having.
Gurudasa: In small villages food grows out of the ground.
Dr. Patel: They don't want to grow. They want to just give up, go to here.
Gurudasa: That is an anomaly.
Dr. Patel: I tell you, this vicious propaganda of the government... I have got a small hill, fifteen bigas, on a highway, Bombay highway, with canal waters irrigating my land and a well with pump and everything. Last year we spent nine thousand rupees on fertilizer and all things and other paraphernalia, and pay for the servants. And they got paddy worth six thousand rupees.
Prabhupada: Three thousand lost.
Dr. Patel: Because the prices was so down, you see, and fertilizer they are selling at a very high rate. Before it was available, a bag, for fifty rupees or fifty-one. Now it is more than eleven-ten. They don't want that a man in the city should be employed for less than five rupees a day. It's very expensive. And they don't work also. They used to work very hard in ancient times. Now they come at ten o'clock, go at five. Before they used to come early morning at six, seven o'clock and work up til five in the evening, and you used to feed them afternoon.
Gurudasa: Use gobar instead of...
Dr. Patel: No, gobar is not that much available.
Gurudasa: Gobar means cows. Get a cow.
Dr. Patel: We use gobar. All of us keep cows. But there is not sufficient for that.
Gurudasa: You can eat six thousand rupees' worth of rice yourself?
Dr. Patel: No, you can't. You have in the market. No, I cannot eat even this much because I can't bring it here to Bombay. There is a barrier. You can't export from one place to another. This is the government. And our rice is just like the (indistinct) quality.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: You go and eat there. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: But I don't go there to eat it. These government regulations are very bad. I don't think they would be able to...
Gurudasa: It's your own right to...
Dr. Patel: He thought that India is spoiled by American policy, Mr. Dulles's. And he spoiled the pitch, this Mr. Nehru, Nehru, being a flamboyant, highly arrogant man... And then they supported Pakistan, and Americans lost lot of money on these small wars. Instead of that, much money was given away to a poor country. it was Dulles who got United States to this present condition. We should have insulated this country after svaraj, not selling anything, not taking anything. Produce yourself or starve and die. People don't work when they get food like that.
Prabhupada: I am simply surprised when I compare British days and nowadays. My practical experienceone of my maternal uncles, he's a very big, rich man. He was; he is not existing. So he was doing business, rice exporting. So in Calcutta, Chetra side, he had big, big godown full of rice. Not only he, other merchants also. But now they are empty. Similarly, from Bombay the oil seeds are being exported.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Last year they exported so much of this groundnut. Groundnut oil is costlier than ghee. (talks on for few minutes)
Prabhupada: So we can go? (end)

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