Prabhupada: Statement of account? [break]

Ramesvara: Statement of accounts, Hari-sauri?

Prabhupada: No, you asked him to give report?

Ramesvara: Oh, you mean in Los Angeles?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Oh, you want a statement...

Hari-sauri: We wrote to ask if you could send a statement.

Ramesvara: You wrote to me?

Prabhupada: No, they sanctioned. Either you can send a copy or the original.

Ramesvara: Oh, yes, no problem. Also this receipt, I wasn't sure. The artists had some meeting to plan out the paintings for Ninth Canto, Volume Three. The Second Volume is rama-lila and also Parasurama. That's already at the printer.

Prabhupada: No picture?

Ramesvara: They're at the printers. When we return they'll be printed. We left Jagannatha-suta there to supervise the printing, and we left enough artists to start painting the Third Volume, the final volume. So there are two paintings describing the story of Maharaja Yayati...

Prabhupada: Yayati.

Ramesvara: ...how he was cursed to lose his youthfulness and so on.

Prabhupada: Sukracarya.

Ramesvara: This first sketch shows Siva and Parvati are passing on the road. These women were bathing, and they are running to cover themselves. And this is the beginning of the fight between the women over the clothing, and Sukracarya's daughter was thrown into a well.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Then because of that, Yayati was cursed, because later on, the woman that threw her into the well, he, she became like a mistress.

Prabhupada: Yes. They were friends. Then they became rivals. Hm. So that's all right.

Ramesvara: Then this is the painting showing Sukracarya and his daughter, and they're cursing Maharaja Yayati. What's happening here is that...

Prabhupada: No, Sukracarya's cloth is why long? So?

Ramesvara: Too long.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Did you catch that?

Muralidhara: It should be below the knees or...?

Prabhupada: Hm? Yes. This is sannyasi cloth. Should be shorter.

Ramesvara: Now, what's happening here is that his face is still very youthful, but his body is becoming very old like an old man's body. Gradually, his hands are old. The only thing left is his face and his neck.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Ramesvara: It is like he's being transformed.

Prabhupada: After cursing, the body was that, but not before.

Ramesvara: This is like artist's license. He has just cursed him, and now his body is changing. But we wanted to show it all at the same time so that they could get the idea.

Prabhupada: That's all right(?).

Ramesvara: And they have shown this taking place in the courtyard, in a courtyard of Sukracarya's residence.

Prabhupada: This...

Ramesvara: But the question is... This cloth.

Prabhupada: Cloth should be...

Ramesvara: Because he was the spiritual master, would he be living in a very opulent house?

Prabhupada: Not necessarily.

Ramesvara: So is this too opulent?

Prabhupada: No.

Ramesvara: They have arches and...

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Ramesvara: Now, there is this other question about which hand... What was his question?

Pariksit: Would he be cursing with the right or left hand.

Ramesvara: What is the point?

Prabhupada: Right or left hand, what problem?

Muralidhara: When they curse someone, is there a certain...

Prabhupada: No. Right hand is all right.

Ramesvara: It's all right either way. Now, this painting shows... At the time of Vyasadeva living in this cottage on the Sarasvati River, there's a description that Sukadeva, he was in the womb, and he would not come out and Vyasadeva went to get Krsna. Personally Krsna came and ordered Sukadeva to take his birth.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Ramesvara: And they have got the womb area a little effulgent to indicate the presence of Sukadeva being a pure...

Prabhupada: Overgrown.

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Ramesvara: Well, it will be overgrown, but they also want it to be effulgent.

Prabhupada: Not overgrown. This is all right.

Ramesvara: Oh. Then there are many descriptions of Lord Krsna in this volume, so they have painted this painting of Lord Krsna. There is especially a description describing the beauty of His face and His lotus feet and His whole bodily beauty, carrying the flute.

Prabhupada: Very nice. It is all right. Now you have become expert, painting Krsna so many years.

Ramesvara: 'Cause we feel that there's never a limit how beautiful Krsna can be painted.

Prabhupada: (chuckling) Yes, unlimited.

Ramesvara: Now, also there are many descriptions, or there are several descriptions in this verse, of the Lord's expansion as Paramatma within the heart of every living entity and also within each atom. Now, a few years ago Bharadvaja drew this picture for Back to Godhead. We were thinking to make a painting similar to this showing that Visnu is within the atom. And this will be used not only in this book, but also we were thinking to use this on the cover of Life Comes From Life.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Ramesvara: We can show these atomic rings?

Prabhupada: Hm.

Ramesvara: Cause the scientists, when they draw pictures of the atom, they show these rings.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Hm.

Ramesvara: Now, this picture, this shows the story of King Rantideva's renunciation. He was fasting for so long, and these different personalities were coming.

Prabhupada: And he was distributing.

Ramesvara: They had to give up his food. But actually, it said that these personalities were actually Lord Siva and Lord Brahma, testing him. So they've shown... How was it shown?

Muralidhara: He's semi-transparent, so you get the idea that he's there and not there at the same time.

Prabhupada: Backside.

Muralidhara: Right behind the...

Hari-sauri: Both of these two figures are the same person. It's just to show that he's actually Lord Siva, but he's appearing as a beggar.

Muralidhara: His whole body will show...

Hari-sauri: So he's like a semi-transparent Lord Siva.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Ramesvara: Now, at the time he was taking this prasada, would he be sitting in his palace room on his throne or...? We were thinking that in his dining room.

Prabhupada: No, dining room.

Ramesvara: There should be a dining room. Then the last painting for the volume is from the twenty-fourth chapter, just the last few verses describing the appearance of Krsna. It describes...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: ...how Krsna and the cowherd boys would enter the forest, and the gopis would be thinking that Krsna's feet are walking on hard rocks. So this is just a very simple sketch to show the idea. They're entering the forest, and the gopis are standing by the houses, watching.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Ramesvara: We have a plan to increase the number of paintings, starting with the Tenth Canto, because many more artists have been coming, and some of them are becoming qualified to paint for the books. The standard right now is there's a picture of Your Divine Grace and seven paintings. So we want to increase it to a picture of Your Divine Grace and eleven paintings.

Prabhupada: You can... If you want to increase picture, you can take important words... Just like the verse nivrtta-tarsair upagiyamanat: "One who has no more material hankering..." Paint it in picture. Nivrtta-tarsaih, no more hankering for anything material. And there is word, dharma-sila, "religious." What is that religion? One who has surrendered to Krsna, he is religious. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. He is religious. Ordinary religious, they are not religious. In this way you depict one picture, one word. This can be...

Brahmananda: Is that the first chapter?

Prabhupada: Pasu-ghna. Pasu-ghna, the animal-killer.

Ramesvara: If we increase the number of pictures, the cost of the book to us will be an additional, between five cents and ten cents, but in exchange for that cost increase, more paintings.

Prabhupada: That is your consideration. But if you are going to add nice pictures, these words can be explained.

Ramesvara: Yes. Also, because in the Tenth Canto there are so many descriptions of Krsna's activities, so Krsna has sent more artists.

Prabhupada: Now, I'll give description of the word, so you can utilize it for...

Ramesvara: (aside:) Do you understand?

Radha-vallabha: Like there may be description of someone that's fully surrendered to Krsna, has no material desires. You have to figure out a way to illustrate it.

Ramesvara: Just like last month you showed me that calendar of how they have illustrated every verse of the Bhagavad-gita. So they have a way of finding... Artists...

Prabhupada: They're selling?

Ramesvara: That calendar that you showed me? When you were in Bhuvanesvara you gave me one calendar, and it had illustrations of Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Ha, ha, yes.

Brahmananda: It had one for every verse?

Ramesvara: Yes. Prabhupada said one day we should do that, picture for every verse.

Brahmananda: Very good picture or simple?

Prabhupada: Very good.

Ramesvara: I gave you that calendar? So they're illustrating philosophic points like that.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Left eye. (about massage?) (some quiet laughter)

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, for this GBC meeting, I understand one of topics will be to discuss some things about Back to Godhead. So I wasn't here when you gave your instructions. So I was wondering if you could give me some idea what you want done, so I can also think about how to improve the magazine. Something is wrong in the magazine?

Prabhupada: That...

Ramesvara: A few things in this last issue.

Prabhupada: The thing is that you should not change abruptly without any sanction.(?)

Ramesvara: In the past I have sometimes asked you that we wanted to try to follow your example when you were first writing Back to Godhead, offering solutions to problems that people are currently bothered by, making the magazine contemporary and so on, rather than just giving them philosophy, but making it so that it can relate to their...

Prabhupada: But we... Based on philosophy. You cannot go beyond the philosophy. Philosophy must be there. It cannot be changed. But we have to... You cannot change the wine. That should be the... So therefore, while changing, you can consult.

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That will be...

Ramesvara: Now, there has been a tendency that I have observed among the writers to try to use what they call outside information sources, like quoting scientists...

Prabhupada: That, one cannot do it unless he is very expert in transcendental knowledge. This is not possible for kanistha-adhikari.

Ramesvara: It's difficult to do.

Prabhupada: Yes. He must be very expert. Therefore I want...

Ramesvara: Satsvarupa.

Prabhupada: Guidance.

Ramesvara: But the principle is all right if it is done properly.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Because I have found that when these so-called authorities...

Prabhupada: In my old Back to Godhead I discussed Gandhi, Churchill, Jhinna, but with reference to the philosophy. I criticized them on the basis of our philosophy.

Ramesvara: For example, Rupanuga just wrote one article which we published, and in this article he was describing some work of some scientists in Europe. They were trying to prove by their experiments that life comes from life. So he was quoting them. He was describing their work, but the whole purpose was to get people to accept the Vedas, to show that even the scientist's conclusion is the same as the Vedas. Therefore the Vedas are authorized.

Prabhupada: Hm. That is nice.

Ramesvara: So that idea, if it's done expertly, can be used...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: ...to convince people.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Ramesvara: Now, sometimes in our mantra page in the beginning of the magazine we have photographs of people who are not living in our temples but who have been induced to chant Hare Krsnasometimes parents of devotees...

Prabhupada: So these things can be discussed. Of course, I could not read. Those who have pointed out the defects, so let them come and then discuss.

Ramesvara: No, if there's some defect, it must be corrected.

Prabhupada: So... No...

Ramesvara: But if it can be done without...

Prabhupada: Whatever is there... They have pointed out some defect, so in the presence of them you discuss. Then I shall give my decision.

Hari-sauri: That should be done in front of Your Divine Grace?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: They should all come?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. So, Satsvarupa, Tamala Krsna, you have said?

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: He's also. He has also pointed out... So altogether. Pros and cons.

Ramesvara: One point that was felt, not the specific defect, but a very general point, is that this magazine is being distributed by the hundreds of thousands to very ordinary people who go shopping in stores, housewives and so on.

Prabhupada: No, still, we cannot make it a shopkeeper's magazine.

Ramesvara: No, of course, but the tone of the magazine, we felt, should be such that they can also feel that it is...

Prabhupada: They may not feel. That cannot be.

Ramesvara: That is their thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Gold must be presented as gold. One may not be able to purchase. You cannot... To sell, you cannot make, adulterate gold with iron.

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is not.

Ramesvara: What about the idea that "You do not have to move into a temple, give up your family and everything, but you can actually chant Hare Krsna in your own home," that idea that "It is available to you..."

Prabhupada: No, that chanting of Hare Krsna does not mean whimsical.

Ramesvara: No.

Prabhupada: Offenseless, he must be properly initiated. It does not mean that he should not be initiated and chant. That is not the idea. You can... Must be initiated, either you are a grhastha or sannyasi or brahmacari. Not that without being initiated you'll whimsically chant and the effect will be the same. No. You must be initiated. Adau gurvasrayam. You must accept a guru.

Ramesvara: If you want to sell some product, you may make so many claims, and then the public will buy. So sometimes we quote these psychologists who have done studies that "If you chant Hare Krsna, there are some good effects."

Prabhupada: Good there is undoubtedly. If you eat something, there will be some effect of eating. But if it is properly eaten, properly made, it will be, have better effect. That is the idea.

Ramesvara: We were thinking that something is better than nothing.

Prabhupada: No.

Hari-sauri: If you advertise the maha-mantra gives some material benefit, isn't that an offense?

Prabhupada: Then that is aparadha.

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is aparadha.

Hari-sauri: One of the ten offenses.

Ramesvara: 'Cause sometimes when we interview these people who are chanting, they speak from their own realization, and it is not exactly the version of Sukadeva Gosvami, it is not..., but it is their own realization, whatever little bit they have realized.

Prabhupada: No, no. They may chant, but they must understand that the chanting process, that will be more effective. That they must know. Chanting is open. Anyone can chant, but they must know it, that "If I chant in the proper process, then it will be effective."

Ramesvara: It must be clear to them that the goal is love of God, not something material.

Prabhupada: Yes. Prema pum-artho mahan. That is wanted. There is one word by Bhaktivinoda Thakura, namaksara bahir haya nama nahi haya: "The... Simply the alphabets are coming, but that is not nama." Namaksara, Hare Krsna, the alphabets, are coming out, but it is not the holy name.

Ramesvara: Suppose someone says that Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given freely this holy name with no rules and regulations... [break]

Brahmananda: We wanted to make a distinction that a nondevotee chanting is different from when a pure devotee chants.

Ramesvara: So that distinction should be there.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: We were thinking that somehow this magazine...

Prabhupada: No, another thing, it is aparadha... Namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhih. Unless he is in the process he'll think, "I am chanting Hare Krsna mantra, so whatever sinful activities I am..., it will be controlled."

Brahmananda: That's the worst offense.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is very bad offense.

Hari-sauri: So we're actually advertising the process of devotional service, not just simply haphazard chanting.

Prabhupada: First of all we are chanting just to make him little attracted. Adau sraddha.

Ramesvara: Just to popularize it.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's it. Then, if the heart is little cleansed, then they will understand. It will be effective, but when it is done properly it will give real effect. Outsider, those who are chanting, we don't discourage him.

Ramesvara: We want then to chant more.

Prabhupada: Yes. But we must... They must know the science also.

Ramesvara: Just like this Alice Coltrane. She has done her small part. She made this record album with Govinda Jaya Jaya and Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is... That will be a good thing. But when he (she) does it properly it will be more effective, because there is... If one does not chant in the process, then gradually it degrades. The offense will increase. There is chance.

Ramesvara: So in the past, in the magazine, we have only shown people chanting if they were initiated devotees, shaven-headed, living in temple. And recently they have adopted to show people who have jobs outside the movement, and they are not brahmacari or sannyasi. They're also chanting, to give the public the idea that...

Prabhupada: So that we are giving, the facility to chant and take prasadam, but at the same time, gradually, if chanting is effective, then next we have to make it in the process.

Brahmananda: We want to bring them to the process.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the ultimate. That is stated by Rupa Gosvami,

Ramesvara: So one step at a time.

Prabhupada: Yes. But organized business means there must be so many men, secretary, manager. That is regulated. So in the beginning, "All right, bring some money somehow. Then I shall..." So you cannot reject this organization because he's chanting. Then what is the use of writing so many books, the nama-aparadha and other discussions, if anyone can chant?

Ramesvara: So it definitely has to lead them to that.

Prabhupada: Yes. So we must come to that point. In the beginning you may be very liberal: "All right, chant." We do like that, and I have done it. There is no regulation. But that does not..., that it should be neglected. He should be given affirmed, "By simply, whimsically chanting this..." No, that is not.

Hari-sauri: Niyamagraha.

Prabhupada: Yes. Don't make it cheap. It has got a science. It has got a form.

Ramesvara: I've seen in some articles they have written to defend our society from the attack of deprogrammers, sometimes one argument they give is that meditation and chanting are being studied by scientists, and they are finding the effects to be good. Now...

Prabhupada: Effect will be good. And if we do it properly it will be first class.

Ramesvara: Now, these scientists, they are studying Hare Krsna meditation, but they're also studying some other processes which are not authorized. And they are...

Prabhupada: That is the defect.

Ramesvara: And they're stating that in general, to meditate, to chant mantra, this is good, this is healthy for the mind.

Prabhupada: That's all right. The thing is that some way or other, if you are near the fire, you'll get some heat, but there is a process how to take heat.

Ramesvara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: That you cannot reject. "Because I am getting little heat, it is sufficient," that is sahajiya.

Ramesvara: So we are trying to use their endorsements and then make it very specific that "Therefore to meditate using the Hare Krsna, this is healthy." So why are you attacking us?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: We're trying like that. They are endorsing something else.

Prabhupada: This is a better meditation. Meditation... One is performing meditation silently. But if we chant "Hare Krsna," it is forced meditation. He has to meditate. So it is better meditation. Just like they're chanting. I am engaged in different business. Still, I am hearing. (kirtana in background) This is the... And one is silently meditating, he's getting, maybe he's getting the benefit, but here anyone who is hearing, getting benefit. Therefore chanting is better than... Yes. And it is recommended by Haridasa Thakura that... This is discussed in Caitanya-caritamrta, that "Chanting, even the trees, even the insects and the animals, they will hear and they get the benefit." So it is better meditation. Even the trees, plants, animals, birds, beasts, they can take benefit. And if it is done by pure Vaisnava, then they get the full benefit.

Ramesvara: There's another trend that I have noticed recently, that they have... In the past, formerly, many articles were full of quotes in Sanskrit, and recently they have not been using so much Sanskrit, but just the English. The magazine is, they say, is mostly sold...

Prabhupada: That is not bad. Sanskrit, not necessarily it has to be quoted, but the English is there. It is sufficient. The purport is there.

Ramesvara: It's now... Now this magazine that we're printing in Los Angeles, ninety-five percent is sold in Canada and America. We used to ship some of it to England, but now they want to print their own in England. We find that all over the world they don't want to import from America, but they want their own. The public feels, "Why should this be an American import? Why not print it..."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: So therefore it seems like, more and more, this magazine is just for America. It's becoming like that.

Prabhupada: So that's all right. They're printing in England. That's all right. So why not the same magazine, but different article?

Ramesvara: I once asked Hrdayananda, "Why not have your men just translate the articles into Spanish from English and print the same magazine, since we have already done the layout?" And he said, "Because the photographs are just Americans. Now, to use this in South America, we want to have photographs of Latin Americans, and we want the preaching to be more specific, more current events and relevant..."

Prabhupada: This is not very good argument.

Ramesvara: He says the people are offended by Americans in Latin America.

Prabhupada: They have got that tendency.

Ramesvara: Jayatirtha used the same argument in England. He said that the people do not like the idea that this is coming from America.

Prabhupada: That you discuss. What I can say?

Brahmananda: Should we have karmi photographs in our magazines?

Ramesvara: What do you mean?

Brahmananda: Like in the English issue they have three photographs of torture.

Prabhupada: That is not good.

Ramesvara: Torture? What do you mean?

Brahmananda: They show a man being burned by fire, a man being pulled his body apart, a man hanging.

Prabhupada: No, that is not...

Brahmananda: Three photographs.

Ramesvara: But not all karmi photographs are bad. Sometimes we use karmi...

Brahmananda: And now our magazine has no pictures of Krsna. The last English edition had not one picture of Krsna.

Prabhupada: That's not good.

Ramesvara: In the past we were using either a photograph of devotees on the cover doing something or a painting. And in the middle of the magazine we used to have stories either from Krsna book or Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Ramesvara: Then there was the use for some pictures.

Prabhupada: So, do this.

Ramesvara: Sometimes they don't... They print different contents.

Prabhupada: No, we are preaching Krsna consciousness. Krsna must be there.

Hari-sauri: We can't produce a magazine without Krsna.

Prabhupada: Without Krsna. That is not good. We cannot allow.

Ramesvara: I mean, the only place for pictures of Krsna...

Prabhupada: No, every, every...

Ramesvara: ...is in illustrating a story. When illustrating one of the pastimes....

Prabhupada: No. We print... We must, therefore, publish Bhagavatam, Krsna philosophy.

Ramesvara: We're publishing Bhagavatam as an insert in each magazine.

Prabhupada: Yes, so that must be there.

Ramesvara: So then there could be a picture to relate to that.

Prabhupada: A picture of Krsna philosophy in the... Yes.

Hari-sauri: There's always an article of Your Divine Grace anyway, and you're always speaking about Krsna.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Hari-sauri: So surely you could put an illustration on that.

Ramesvara: We could, but the standard is we use just Prabhupada speaking, showing Prabhupada.

Hari-sauri: But there was that hand pouring that thing into the test tube, which... No one liked that.

Ramesvara: No one heard the reason. I don't like it either, but I understand why they did it. You have to hear both sides, you know.

Hari-sauri: Well, there's always a reason. But you have to get to the point-Krsna.

Prabhupada: Even it is eso..., esopheric? What is called?

Devotees: Esoteric.

Prabhupada: Still, Krsna must be there.

Ramesvara: So you think... You say that in every issue there should be at least one picture, painting, of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Hm. And Bhagavata.

Ramesvara: And Bhagavata. That should be our rule.

Hari-sauri: Like that test tube picture...

Prabhupada: Bhagavata, Bhagavad-gita.

Hari-sauri: ...if they'd have showed Krsna pouring that mixture into a test tube...

Prabhupada: That is not good, that Krsna is doing, manufacturing test tube.

Ramesvara: No, that wasn't the idea.

Brahmananda: That was a satire. They were showing....

Ramesvara: Yes, that was it. It was a satire.

Brahmananda: The scientist is pouring chemicals, and from this chemical come all these colorful varieties. That wasn't clear.

Ramesvara: No one will believe it. Their idea was that... Anyway, I agree. It was a mistake. This issue that's at the printer right now has many pictures of Krsna in it. It's a big improvement.

Prabhupada: So do it very conscientiously.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? It's time for everybody to take lunch prasada.

Prabhupada: Yes, go.

Brahmananda: Jaya Prabhupada.

Ramesvara: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (end)