Giriraja: ...so even if they do everything else correct in terms of the body. They go farther and farther from the real solution.

Prabhupada: Everyone has done this mistake. "I am God." What is the use of the advancement of so-called civilization?

Giriraja: We have to show that this is scientific fact. Otherwise the demons will make propaganda that this is sectarian.

Prabhupada: "Brainwashed." They say "brainwashed."

Giriraja: Yes.

Prabhupada: So if he has already talked with Morarji, and he has agreed, then it is great advance.

Giriraja: Yes.

Prabhupada: Good advance.

Giriraja: He said he would be pleased to meet you. He gave a speech on the television last night.

Prabhupada: Morarji?

Giriraja: Yes. In Hindi. I couldn't follow all of it, but there was a lot of reference to Gandhi and Gandhi's principles and the..., molding the character of youth. So I told Mr. RajdaI was watching with Mr. Rajda in his housethat this is the real way to fulfill all of these goals, Krsna consciousness, and Mr. Rajda said yes.

Prabhupada: Then that television speech must be out in the paper.

Giriraja: Yes, it must have been reported this morning. I mean he is representing a return to the more traditional standards of morality and culture of India.

Tamala Krsna: They say that they are going to replace this family planning with yoga. Instead of using artificial means, they're going to teach yoga.

Prabhupada: To become brahmacari.

Giriraja: The minister of health and family planning, he said, he denied, that "This name should be changed to just minister of health, because this type of family planning is against the traditional values of India."

Tamala Krsna: It is totally against it. It's Western, the whole Western conception.

Giriraja: Actually, a short time ago, everyone knew that these things were wrong, but now they are trying to pretend that it is not wrong. They are trying to forget.

Prabhupada: They can do, all their political divisions. These rascals, they can do. Anything. They have no principles, no morality, no standard of morality, nothing. Simply all rogues and thieves. It will more and more. All rogues and thieves will take part in politics. That is stated. Dasyu dharmena. Just like dasyu, the burglar, the thieves, they have got organization how to get money. So they, the government, they'll be rogues and thieves. And whenever there is necessity of money, then tax. You work hard; they will tax. Organized burglars, organized gundas. And Indira was doing that. Indira and company. Take the power and club(?) them and do whatever you like. She is a prostitute; her son is a gunda. This is the sample of the... But it will be done all round the world. This is a sample of that.

Tamala Krsna: She seems to have been one of the worst leaders so far.

Prabhupada: She is not leader, she is a prostitute. Woman given freedom means prostitute. Free woman means prostitute. What is this prostitute? She has no fixed-up husband. And free woman means this, daily, new friend.

Tamala Krsna: Who is Indira's husband, a congressman?

Giriraja: He died at an early age.

Prabhupada: Hm? Who?

Giriraja: He was asking what happened to her husband. I said he died. He was a Parsee. As Your Divine Grace had said, that due to the sankirtana movement an auspicious atmosphere is being created all over the world. So is it not possible that at least for the time being things will improve?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Improve. Not for the time being. For ten thousand years.

Giriraja: Yes. Out of 427,000 years I was taking that 10,000 as for the time being.

Prabhupada: It is nothing sport.(?)

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, where is the mention of that ten thousand years?

Prabhupada: That I have heard it. Maybe in the Bhagavata. Such a nice thing. Alone in this world I am struggling, and the so-called intelligent persons, they will not come. They have business. Why? If it is actually beneficial to the human society, why I should alone try? I will go on trying so long I'll live. There will be no checking of... But what kind of intelligent persons there are? (Govindam record in background) It has been approved by intelligent men like... From our section. Most wretched rogues. They do work. They are not so. They are intelligent. They have rejected all these "Lord" ideas and the... Because they have sinned, all humbug. Especially in the Western countries, in the Christian world, what is there? It is bogus. I have condemned it. You have seen that book? One Christian boy inquired. Have you got the copy? Bring. (pause) We shall go on playing govindam adi-purusam tam aham. People may hear or not hear. We don't mind.

Tamala Krsna: To Mr. Francois Pierre. "My dear Francois." He's in France. "Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated March 17th. Try to understand our mission of Krsna consciousness. The world is all going to hell. They do not know what is the value of life. Like blind sheep following a blind leader, they are all going to the slaughterhouse. Human life is meant for saving, but instead the leaders are keeping the people in darkness. This is suicidal. Let us try to save them. Christian, Hindu, or Muslim, it doesn't matter. One must have faith in God. But if one does not know what is God, then what is the question of religion? This sectarian view has caused havoc in the world. Our real business is to know God and one's relationship with God. Do you know what is God? The answers to your questions are as follows: 1) Yes, the message of Jesus is universally applicable. Why not? Jesus says, 'Thou shalt not kill.' This is applicable to all. But all Christians are violating this law. So where is a Christian? In my opinion there is not a single Christian. Do they follow all ten commandments? 2) We accept Jesus Christ as saktyavesa-avatara, an empowered incarnation of God. 3) The Bible should be accepted literally and not symbolically. There is no symbolical meaning of the sacrifice on the cross. The people were so rascal. They attempted to kill him because he was speaking of God. We can understand the position of that society. He had to deal with such rascals. He preached 'Thou shalt not kill,' and they killed him. The argument that Jesus died to redeem us of sins is simply another sinful argument. That Jesus has taken contract to redeem your sins is simply a plea of the sinners. They continue sinning and expect Christ to take the contract to freedom. It is most sinful. Instead of actually stopping sins, they contract with Jesus Christ. These people should be immediately hanged. That way our..., they say, 'That way our religion is very good. We cannot stop sinning, but it is okay because Christ has taken contract to save us.' It is the same as saying 'I am chanting Hare Krsna now. I can do any nonsense.' That is known as nama-aparadha, offenses to the holy name of the Lord. 4) Regarding Christ coming again, for the time being, you follow his instructions. Then if he comes it will be all right. Regarding the position of our movement if Christ were to come again, that we shall see when he comes. 'The end of the world' means that the world will be devastated. Just like you have a body and it will be finished, similarly the whole world body will be devastated. Creation, maintenance and annihilation. Nasa in Sanskrit means devastated. 5) There is no difference between a pure Christian and a sincere devotee of Krsna. 6) Everything is accurately described in the Bhagavata Mahapurana. Love of God means God's mercy. If God is pleased, He will do anything. The pleasure of God can be awarded by God. In Sanskrit it is described krpa-siddhi, perfection out of mercy. One must follow the four regulative principlesno eating meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication; no gambling; and no illicit sex life. Repent of all sinful activities and depend on Krsna's mercy. Hoping this meets you well, your ever well-wisher, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami."

Giriraja: Very nice. Actually, about two years ago there was a propaganda in the West that if you are afraid of sinning, then it means that you don't have full faith in Jesus Christ. Because he has promised to accept your sinful reactions. So therefore if you sin, then it means that you have full faith that he will accept the reaction.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada said those people should be hanged immediately.

Prabhupada: When the Bible has said, that after death one goes to hell or heaven? If Jesus Christ has taken a contract, then where is the question of going to hell?

Tamala Krsna: Well, that is for people who don't sign the contract with him. That is what they say. As long as you say that you accept Jesus, then you are going to heaven for sure.

Prabhupada: So then Jesus Christ accepted sinful reaction of a certain class of men. He is not universal.

Tamala Krsna: Only those who accept him.

Giriraja: That means the Christians.

Tamala Krsna: Right. And anyone who was born before Jesus, he is doomed.

Prabhupada: Just see. This is their great philosophy.

Tamala Krsna: Great philosophy.

Giriraja: So this point was an embarrassment for the Christian theologians, because people would say, "Well, what about great philosophers like Socrates and Plato who lived before Jesus? They are also damned to suffer in hell?" So this question was very perplexing. It was hard for them to condemn that they are all burning in hell. I mean, actually they have no philosophy at all.

Prabhupada: All nonsense.

Tamala Krsna: That is why we rejected our so-called religious heritage. We could see that there was no substance to it. And the leaders were just like normal debauchees of any other groups. They weren't spiritual. I used to remember seeing the priests and the rabbis getting drunk, smoking cigarettes, talking nonsense just like everybody else. There was no difference except for the dress.

Prabhupada: This is everywhere. In India also.

Tamala Krsna: Giriraja, did you get those passbooks by any chance?

Giriraja: Amogha-lila was... Mr. Krishnamurti didn't come back until the afternoon, so it couldn't be taken for being brought up to date.

Tamala Krsna: So I'm going today. I have to meet with Giriraja about a number of things, Srila Prabhupada. (end)