January 22-23, 1976, Māyāpura
Śāstrījī: (chanting Sanskrit or Bengali ślokas) [break] Āise guru-pada-kamalaṁ vande. Āise guru-pada-kamalaṁ vande. (chants Bengali verses)
Prabhupāda: [break] ...sex. Āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. This is life: sex and bhaya, fearfulness, and then eating and sleeping-four things. They must eat, they must sleep, and the sex, and as soon as some men are coming, flying. This is there in the human society. Where is the distinction?
Prabhupāda: They are also together, the same sex. Āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. And they are writing books, big, big book, "Sex Psychology," Freud. This rascals' philosophy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's—his-name is doing that too. That bogus guru in Bombay, Rajneesh. He is also writing sex psychology books.
Prabhupāda: That's all. And this is going on as pleasure.
Guḍākeśa: He's been thrown out of Bombay now. He can't come to Bombay.
Prabhupāda: So many rascals are there. Is there any philosophy which is existent in the lower animals? What is philosophy there? And they are writing big, big philosophy, Freud's philosophy and others.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You did not know that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You told me?
Harikeśa: No, you told me. Then I told you.
Prabhupāda: Somebody told me, some Western authority.
Prabhupāda: The Mohammedans say. In the Koran it is written there, "From this day, no sex life with mother." In the modern philosophy they say, "What is the wrong? Why there should be discrimination?" John Lennon was follower of this. "Sex anyone. It doesn't matter. It is a bodily necessity. That's all." They learn this art from the hogs, hog philosophy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one popular music group in America called the Hog Farm. And what they do is they have their... When they are playing their music, just below the stage they have a big pen with many hogs in it, and at the end of the music they all jump down amongst the hogs, and then they do all kinds of nonsense things. And it's a very popular group.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) How they are bringing ruination. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. The blind men led by another blind man. It is not new. In the Bhāgavata therefore it is warned that "Don't follow hog philosophy." Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. This kind of philosophy, that for sense gratification, laboring whole day and night, writing books, philosophizing and all these things, it is meant for the hogs, not for human being. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This kind of civilization is meant for the hogs. So they are exhibiting that they are no better than hog.
Śāstrījī: Śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam. Brahma-saukhya, ananta-brahma-saukhya. [break] (sings Bengali verses)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Don't manufacture knowledge. Take knowledge from Bhagavān. And that is our business. (Bengali) Don't order Bhagavān. Just follow Bhagavān. That is wanted. (Bengali) Don't write concocted poetries. That is not beneficial. Simply follow. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That is your business, not to give upadeśa to Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, do this." Nāciye nāciye āile gopāla: "My dear Gopāla, please come to me, nāciye, dancing." And the Gopāla is father's servant. Ordering, "Gopāla, come," nāciye nāciye, "my sense gratification." It is all nonsense. Why should you ask Gopāla to come to you? (Bengali) You cannot order. You must follow. (Bengali) ...to carry out the order of God, not to order God to carry out my order. That is mistake.
Indian man (1): Always surrender to God.
Indian man (1): Move according to the dictation of God
Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't dictate God. The demigod worshipers, they dictate, dhanaṁ dehi, rūpaṁ dehi, yaśo de... This dehi, dehi, dehi. Therefore they are condemned. In the Bhagavad-gītā they have been condemned. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante [Bg. 7.20]. He is so kāmuka, he is ordering God. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. But that order cannot be carried by God, but the demigods, they sometimes become flattered and give this benediction. So Kṛṣṇa said, tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: "This kind of flattering the demigods and take some benediction," antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. Order... You cannot order God, but you can flatter these demigods. And therefore people are very much fond of flattering these demigods because...
Indian man (1): Just to get material wealth. Material happiness.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām. All this material happiness, you may get it, but it will be finished with your body. Kṛṣṇa says that teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, dadāmi buddhi-yoga [Bg. 10.10]. He says, "I will give intelligence. There is no question of asking. If you become a devotee, sincere devotee, I'll give you everything without your asking." You understand, follow? So you qualify yourself. That is wanted. That qualification is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. He is always prepared to give you light. Just like sunlight is open always, but if you keep yourself in the dark room, how you can take benefit of the sunlight? Your business is to come before the sun; then everything will be all right. [break] ...used to sing like that, sab ke sampatti de bhagavān.(?)Huh? Raghupati rāghava rāja... You know? Sab ke sampatti de bhagavān. De bhagavān? What is this nonsense? He's asking, de bhagavān.
Guḍākeśa: "Give me."
Prabhupāda: No, he has no sense what is God. This is going on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Isn't it that song they sing at the Kumbhamela? You know, they were singing all the time at the Kumbhamela, "Give me this, give me that." What is that song?
Indian man (1): Hare.
Prabhupāda: Viṣaya paiye, dhana sampatti paiye. What is that? (laughter) Jaya bhagavān. Dehom ki viṣaya(?), jaya bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: Duḥkha jaye sampatti paiye de bhagavān, jayo kara. (Bengali) Whole world, they have accepted God as order-supplier. "I order, and You supply." They all, this Christian Church also: "God, give us our daily bread."
Prabhupāda: Dead. This is going on. And our prayer is, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye: [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4] "I don't want anything. Simply engage me in Your service." Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī. This is real prayer, which is taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? I was reading in a magazine that in Germany the people used to be pious, but after the Second World War...
Prabhupāda: They became atheist.
Guḍākeśa: Prabhupāda said that.
Prabhupāda: That... It was spoken by my, that Godbrother, Sadānanda. He told me.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Not only... Everywhere now there will be harassment for us because this is the only movement preaching about God's glories. This is only movement in the whole world. So the harassment will increase.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The more we sell our books, the harassment will be there. But sale is increasing.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...religious persecution. We don't mind that. We shall go on with our business. (Bengali) They feel, "Now this is coming."
Prabhupāda: When they feel. Yes. Just like our Godbrothers. Now they're feeling; therefore there is harassment. "Harass them." Planning how to harass. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. When he saw that Prahlāda could not be killed in so many ways, he became very much disturbed: "What is this?" Then one day he asked, "Prahlāda, wherefrom you have got this power?" "And wherefrom you have got this power? I am getting from the same source."
Prabhupāda: Again he became angry. "Somebody else than me? I am God."
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is so kind that He is sitting in everyone's heart to give him good advice. There is no need of asking. He is only finding out the good opportunity to speak to him. (Bengali) Two birds sitting? So He is always eager to give you advice. He comes down to give you advice. So we are not taking the advice. That is the position.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ, He said. So who is taking His advice? Five thousand years Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Who is surrendering? Hm? Therefore Kṛṣṇa came again as Caitanya Mahāprabhu how—to surrender—but still the rascals will not do that.
Prabhupāda: Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. This is illusion. [break] ...two cases. One was my friend, and he was a big man. So one servant, he advised him that "You do like this." He was immediately dismissed. I have got experience. "You are trying to advise me? Get out immediately." Huh?
Guḍākeśa: Very good example. So if we try to advise God...
Prabhupāda: No, God is not so foolish that... But He laughs that "This man has come to advise."
Prabhupāda: My guru mahārāja used to say—I think I have explained many times—that "Don't try to see God. Do in such a way that God will see you." Similarly, don't try to advise God, but follow the advice of God. That is our way. Because Bhagavān... (Bengali) This is also command. (Bengali) Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. If you are fully engaged in the service, then He will come: "Please see Me." Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. And if we want to see God with our these blunt eyes, it is not possible. Na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. This said... Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. (Bengali) Or in the material world if our mind is always disturbed for sense gratification it is not possible. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi. Even you cannot understand what is this chanting, śrī-kṛṣṇa... Because God worship begins from the chanting of name, therefore it is said, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi. Nāma, līlā, form. Begins from nāma. So na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. If you keep your senses blunt, then it is not possible. Purify. And what is that? Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Hṛṣīka means senses. When you engage all your senses in the service of the Lord, then you become nirmala. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. Tat-paratvena nirmalam.
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]
(Bengali) Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: [Bg. 18.66] "As soon as you surrender, I take charge of you." Then everything you'll get. Be always confident that "Kṛṣṇa will save me. Let me serve Kṛṣṇa sincerely." That's all. (Bengali) You'll find in Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna many times said, iti śuśrūṣu: "I do not know whether it is correct, but I heard it like that." That is speaking. What you have heard from the authorities, if you speak, you repeat that, that is real speaking. Then pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt: then you'll be guru for the whole world, if you don't manufacture. So what is the difference between our Kṛṣṇa conscious and others? They manufacture ideas. Just like Ramakrishna Mission, manufacture: daridra-nārāyaṇa sevā. Where is...? Nārāyaṇa is there, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. Where is this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa? He manufactured. (Bengali)
Jayapatākā: They are saying that there, there are so many roads named after him. They are saying.
Prabhupāda: How propaganda, lies.
Prabhupāda: I have seen one road, street, "Gandhi Street," Mexico, and there is no other. Mexico, when there was trouble with the Americans, they adopted Gandhi's noncooperation movement. Therefore they regarded Gandhi. There is Gandhi's statue and Gandhi's name, one. Who had been Mexico, any of you? That I have seen. And I never seen Vivekananda Road, never. Or India, oh, so many, this, that. No Caitanya Mahāprabhu Road. Vivekananda Road. Propaganda. The other day I saw some stamp, postage, "Vivekananda." You have seen it? But never they will publish Kṛṣṇa or Caitanya Mahāprabhu. "Kṛṣṇa is fictitious." What is called? Mythology. "Kṛṣṇa is mythology." (Bengali) The government saw, especially the police department, and they became so popular. Within two, three years, thousands and thousands of men, not only Indian. Kichu āchen. All Europeans, American, Englishmen, they are following Rathayātrā. Jaya jagannātha, jaya hare kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) "Rival of Nelson Column..." (Bengali) [break] (Bengali) "It is hell." Actually that is. Always wet. No road you'll find it is dry. Always damp. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: And it is so damp that in the trees you will see, what is called? (Bengali) Moss, moss, moss. Yes.
Indian man (1): Gathered moss.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In every tree you will find. They do not get sufficient sunshine. (Bengali) We have got very nice lawn, but I cannot enjoy it. Hardly one day or two. You cannot sit there. It is cold.
Prabhupāda: No, they gave it, account up to December 12, week ending on December 12.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there was a six-day period when they sold 650,000 pieces of literature, six days.
Prabhupāda: Recently we have published abridged edition of Bhagavad-gītā, 350,000... Three hundred and fifty hundred thousand.
Guḍākeśa: Three and a half lakhs.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Already, though, over half of it is sold out. In one month we've sold over half the printing.
Indian man (4): Even among Indians, it is so popular, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Which one?
Indian man (4): Your Bhagavad-gītā. All the Indians, in meeting they all come. Two or three times I have met. Some of them say, "You have got more? You have got more Bhagavad-gītā?"
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Why they look inquisitive? No commentary. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Cent percent cheater beginning from the top. They have lost their own culture, Vedic civilization, and they are not competent to earn properly. They must be cheater. Beg, borrow, steal. They have lost their own culture; therefore they have no one honest. Formerly Indians were so honest that after one man's death, his son comes... Even we have seen it in childhood. "Sir, my father took from you the five thousand rupees. So now he is dead, so I have come to pay you." So he says, "I never seen my account that your father has taken five thousand rupees from me. I cannot take it." This is India. One man is offering him five thousand, that "We are debtor to you. Please take it." And he says, "No, I don't find in my account that your father took five thousand. I cannot take it." And now they are cheating. This is India's position. Even in our childhood I have see that Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent some lakhs of rupees. So when he became a big barrister he called every one of them that "My father died insolvent. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India. And now they have become cheaters. This is svarāj, independence. Even in British times there was C. R. Das who liquidated the debts of his insolvent father. "My father died insolvent. He could not pay, so he declared insolvency in the court. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Therefore ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ. A father dies insolvent, debtor; he is enemy because the son has to pay according to Manu-saṁhitā law. Because he inherits father's money, why he shall not pay if the father is debtor?
Jayapatākā: He also inherits the debt.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is India's law. You cannot simply inherit father's property and no debt. You inherit father's debt also. So a father dies debted, indebtor—he is supposed to be enemy because the son has to pay. Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi.(?)And mother, if she marries for the second time in spite of presence of children, she is enemy. And in Western countries it is very common affair.
Prabhupāda: All enemies. Mother enemy, father enemy. And then? Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi, rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. And if the wife is very beautiful, she is also enemy. And putraḥ śatrur apaṇḍitaḥ. And the son, if he's a rascal, he is enemy. That's all. This is family enemies. In the family nobody expects enemy, but Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that these are enemies in the family. Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi, rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Now everyone is hankering after very beautiful wife, and Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, "Then you are bringing one enemy." Just see what is the type of civilization. Because if you become too much attached to wife, then you'll never be able to go out of home and take sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Andha-kūpam. You shall have to die. Gṛham andha-kūpam. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato... You'll never be able to leave the home if wife is very attractive. Of course, everyone's wife is very attractive. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes. That... One, our Sanskrit professor used to... "My dear boys, even there is beauty amongst the negroes." He used to say. And it is my... It is one's eye that she is very beautiful. It does not recommend others' recommendation. Yar saṅge ye morje man kibari ki vardana(?). It doesn't matter whether she low caste or high caste; if she is attractive, then it is all right. Therefore rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction are very, very nice. You know my story? My father's instruction? Yes.
Harikeśa: What was that?
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) My wife was never beautiful to my sight, so I wanted to marry again, and my father advised, "Don't do it. She is your friend, that you don't like her." (laughs) Just see.
Prabhupāda: Huh? No, that is natural. In young time, when there is young girl... That is also said, yauvane kukkarī sundarī. When woman is in full youth, even she is like dog, she is beautiful. (laughs) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī.
Prabhupāda: No, that was also... I do not know, but this is going on. (laughter) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī. It is by nature's arrangement the woman is given one chance at the time of youthfulness. Otherwise how she will be given protection by a man? They require protection. If somebody is not attracted, then how she gets protection? This is natural.
Harikeśa: And they call this liberation.
Prabhupāda: Want means as the social practice is there, everyone becomes victimized.
Prabhupāda: The social system in India, that a boy, say, twenty, twenty-five years, and a girl, twelve to sixteen years, must be married. Must be married. And before marriage the girl should not see any boy, and the boy should not see any woman. Then the life is all right. Even in U.P. still, the system is that before marriage the boy should not see. The marriage takes place. Nowadays it has been practiced that boy goes to see the girl, but formerly it was not. She (he) should not see. She (he) should see the girl when the marriage actually takes place, not before that. The psychology is that when they require a man or a girl, so whatever she is or he is, they accept and they remain chaste, so there is no separation. This is the psychology. Whenever you are hungry, whatever nonsense foodstuff is offered to you, it is palatable. Is it not? Because, after all, it is the appetite which eats, not the foodstuff. Foodstuff may be very, very nicely prepared, but if you have no appetite, it is finished. You know the history of Ramakrishna? Did I say? Yes. So he had no appetite, and he very tactfully said, "Oh, you are not my wife. You are my mother." And he became Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Not transcendentally. In his young time he used so many women that after marriage he was impotent. So he could not use, and he made a tact that "I see all women as my mother, even my wife." And that made him famous, this jugglery. Phuraphai(?) govindāya namaḥ. Flying, what is called? Puffed rice flying, "All right, govindāya namaḥ. I offer to Govinda." Phuraphai govindāya. Where is in the history that a saintly person has called his wife "mother"? The saintly person give some home, that's all. And where is the, such instance—a saintly man calls his wife as "mother"? He is the only man. "Mā."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, there's another thing I noticed, that in the pictures very often of Ramakrishna and his mother, his wife, whichever one she is, they show...
Prabhupāda: No, they show that "This is husband and wife. Ramakrishna was so advanced that even his wife, he left her, considering, 'She is my mother.' By worshiping mother Kālī he has become so perfect that sees all women as mother." He does not require to become Bhagavān. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Para-dāreṣu, not your own wife. Huh? Others' wife should be treated as mother. That is our Indian system. But he wanted to overcome that, that "I call even my wife mother."
Prabhupāda: Ah, better than all others.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question I've had is that in the pictures they always show her head. She is bareheaded. She doesn't cover her head. And I noticed the thing that when we're sometimes passing in a car in Bengal I notice that the women, very often, they don't... It's more in this state than anywhere else, they don't cover their head. Is that due to her influence?
Prabhupāda: No, no. The system is when the woman is at the care of father she does not cover. But when she is under the care of husband she must cover. By dress you can understand what she is, whether she is widow, whether she has got husband, whether she is prostitute. Everything by dress you'll understand. Nowadays the fashion is the woman has the bakan(?) sīmanta here, not here.
Prabhupāda: But that was meant for prostitute. If the woman has sīmanta here, then you should understand. Then you can freely talk with. She is advertising, "Yes, I am prostitute. You can talk with me." Without that signboard no man is gentleman if he wants to talk with another woman. He can talk only with that woman. Neither you can talk with widow. That girl, our (sic:) Śivaśakti's mother? She is dressing herself as widow. That is very nice. Very nice. That simple dress will not attract men.
Bhavānanda: In America, Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes when I preached in the schools I used that example, that how by looking at a woman's part of her hair you can tell what she is. And so many of the girls in the class, they had their hair parted on the side. So I said a woman who has her hair parted on the side is a prostitute. They all laughed.
Prabhupāda: "And what is the wrong to become prostitute?" They accept it, "All right, we are prostitute."
Bhavānanda: Right. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Now there is no distinction between prostitute and chaste.
Jayapatākā: That was published in the Bombay Illustrated Weekly, that the prostitutes are having difficulty because women are so freely available that no one is coming to pay for them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the position.
Prabhupāda: Because everyone is prostitute. Vartula pravaha.(?) You know vartula pravaha? This nyāya, logic? Vartula pravaha. One brāhmaṇa was taking bath daily in the Ganges. So as a brāhmaṇa's regulative principle, they take kośa-kuśī to offer oblation to the forefathers, śraddhā. So one day he found there are so many kośa-kuśīs, so he could not understand which is his own. So next day, just to find out his own, he put one earth ball in his own kośa. Kośa you understand?
Jayapatākā: Some plate.
Prabhupāda: One plate, yes. It is placed like this. So when he came from, after bathing, he saw that so many kośas are, everything is containing that ball, vartula. Then again he was puzzled that he put a ball in his own kośa so that he can find out, but when he came back from bathing he saw that all the kośas... Then he asked all other brāhmaṇas, "How is that, that there are so many balls in everyone's kośa? I put it to recognize my own." So they said, "I thought that it is a fashion now. It is an occasion to put a ball in..." Vartula pravaha. The same difficulty. At Bombay there was some news like this, that prostitutes are not doing well in their profession? Who told me that?
Harikeśa: He said it was in the Illustrated Weekly.
Prabhupāda: Oh. When it was?
Jayapatākā: About one year ago. There was a big article on prostitution.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we understand that in the Satya-yuga one hundred percent of the population was God conscious. But then again, we see many times it is stated that, for example, there were always prostitutes or there was always this or...
Prabhupāda: No meat-eaters.
Prabhupāda: Every person was perfectly, spiritually...
Harikeśa: On the earth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then in Tretā-yuga one-fourth diminished. And then Dvāpara-yuga, half diminished. And in Kali-yuga, three-fourth diminished. Seventy-five per cent are all rogues, and twenty-five per cent... That is expected, but that is now diminishing. They are all rogues with the advancement of Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. Therefore there is no other method to save them. Harer nāmaiva kevalam. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. Incorrigible. Everyone will be incorrigible. Only hope is Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole Vedic system is to make human being correct. Being incorrect, they are suffering in this material world repetition of birth, death. Sometimes man, sometimes dog. So to correct him so that he comes to his original position, Kṛṣṇa conscious, and go back to home. This is the whole Vedic civilization, to correct him. Therefore it is called saṁskāra. Saṁskāra means correction. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Veda-pāṭhād bhaved vipro brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.(?)To correct him and bring him to the brahminical stage. From pig stage to brahminical stage. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone is like pig in this material world. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, "Now don't live like pig." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye: [SB 5.5.1] "Now, you, My children... " He was advising, instructing His son that "Now this life is not to live like pig." This is the first instruction, because everyone is more or less pig, living like pig. Pig means he has no discrimination of eating and he has no discrimination of sex. That is pig. And everyone is like that. No discrimination of eating, especially in the Western. And no discrimination of sex. Pigs. Big pig or small pig, that's all. So Ṛṣabhadeva says, "Now My dear sons, don't spoil your life living like pigs." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Nṛloke means "In the human society you should not live like pig and very hard labor." So the whole civilization at the present moment they want to live like pig, and to live like pig they are working like an ass. And that is civilization, working like ass to become a pig. You tell them!
Harikeśa: They will get very angry.
Prabhupāda: Angry... With shoes. We beat them with shoes that "You have created a civilization to work like ass, and ideal is to become a pig. What is this civilization? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puru... [SB 2.3.19]. And for their votes you become a president. What you are better than a pig? A pig votes for another pig, big pig. That's all. How people will be happy?"
Harikeśa: You told them that in South Africa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Did I say?
Prabhupāda: But they clapped.
Harikeśa: Yes. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They appreciated. Although they do not take Indians very seriously...
Harikeśa: "Third-class citizens."
Prabhupāda: Third class. But they attended my lecture, they purchased my books and they clapped.
Prabhupāda: Yes, South Africa. That I... Very much I was astonished that how these...
Prabhupāda: Oh, many of them.
Harikeśa: Oh, no.
Prabhupāda: No, no. White men. Yes. And in Melbourne the priests also appreciated. So any sane man will appreciate our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. These are very strong words, that "You have created a civilization of pig, and for making perfect that civilization you are working like ass." So what is the advancement? A ass is trying to become a pig. What is that civilization? The ideal is to become a pig, and for that, fulfillment of that idea, they are working like ass. Is it not? Just see. Think over.
Bhavānanda: They like it.
Prabhupāda: This is the fact. Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. They are very much proud: "I have got ninety-nine percent votes and I have become President." But what you are? You are another big pig only. Who has voted you? The voters are pigs and asses and camel and dogs. So if these animal vote for somebody, then what he is? Is there... Are... Their votes are calculable at all? Votes by the dogs, pigs, camels, and... śva-viḍ-varāha. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara, and asses. So what is the value of these votes? And that is going on, democracy.
Prabhupāda: There is no human being. A big... I gave that a big animal, lion, is fearful to the small animal. But because he is lion, very strong, does it mean that he's a human being? That is going on. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's nothing but animal. So if other small animals praise him, "Oh, you are..." This Gandhi or Indira Gandhi or, and the Hitler and... What is the value? He's a big animal, that's all.
Harikeśa: Churchill was tweaking the ear of Hitler, and Hitler was tweaking... Like in school the two children?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Jayapatākā: Yesterday you mentioned to the secretary that the members of legislature should all be Vaiṣṇavas. They should all be brahminically qual...
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this nonsense asses and pigs and dogs and cats? What they will do?
Jayapatākā: One goal we could have is that they would pass a law that no one could be a member of a legislature who didn't follow the four regulative principles.
Prabhupāda: Who will do that? That can be possible if you spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very widely and they become convinced that "We shall not vote anyone to these rascals. We must have a Vaiṣṇava." Then everything will be changed. That is the only opportunity, that if people become Vaiṣṇava and they decide that "We are not going to vote anyone who is not a Vaiṣṇava," then everything will be all right.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the devotees question that the Kali-yuga is advancing, and in that sense the standards are deteriorating. Yet you are preaching that "Get everyone to the position where everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious." How in the Kali-yuga advancing can everyone become Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Prabhupāda: They do not understand. If I say, "The epidemic is increasing. You take this injection, then you can be saved. If you don't take vaccination, then you'll suffer." This is our propaganda. "You take this vaccination; you'll be saved. The epidemic is very strong." But if you think, "Now, because there is epidemic there is no other way. What is the use of taking vaccination?" This is no argument. The epidemic is there; the vaccination is there. (aside:) This is tulasī? Tell them. The disease is there; the medicine is there. So intelligent man should take the medicine, precaution, and then he'll be saved. Two things are there. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. In Kali-yuga, if you don't take this, then there is no means of your save, safety. The two things are there. Why you are taking one thing? You take this thing or... [break] Everywhere two things are there: do's and don't's. So in order to make the process of do's you have to accept the process of don't's. That Nectar of Instruction, Rūpa Gosvāmī? He's instructing both the do's and the don't's. Huh? You have read it?
Prabhupāda: Ah. That is don't's.
Prabhupāda: This is do's. That is instruction. Why should you take one side? Take both sides.
Prabhupāda: You have to take.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is still a statement in the do's which is a don't, where it says, "Don't associate with nondevotees." Utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt... [Upadeśāmṛta 3].
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is don't's and do's also. Sato vṛtteḥ. This is do's. Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. All the ślokas, they are... In some śloka the do's are prominent, some ślokas don't's prominent, but in every śloka there is do's and don't's. Everywhere there is. In the Bible also: "Thou shall not do. Thou shall not kill." The don't's. [break] You are learning śabda-rūpa, dhātu-rūpa.
Hiraṇyagarbha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Every śloka there is śabda, dhātu, everything. Nominative, objective. [break] ...some you are going to say, just study yourself, whether it is not the civilization of asses and pigs. You have to understand first of all. Is it not? They are working hard like an ass just to become an ideal pig. Is it not this civilization?
Harikeśa: Having sex with mother, daughter, sister...
Prabhupāda: Yes. How śāstra has picked up the example, just see. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate... [SB 5.5.1]. What is that?
Prabhupāda: Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. This is not civilization. This is civilization, tapasya: no meat-eating, no this, no this, that, and become perfect, ideal brāhmaṇa life, satya śama dama śuci jñāna vijñāna. This is civilization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unless you become civilized like this, there is no opportunity of brahma-jijñāsā. And so long you do not inquire about Brahman, that you remain, that pigs and hogs and asses. If human civilization is wasted to cultivate the pig civilization, naturally, "All right, you come here. Become a pig now. Take this body." Kṛṣṇa will say, "Nature, prakṛti, he got this chance to become human being, but has misused. Kindly give him a body of pig."
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
Then you get this yantra, how you can become perfect pig, whole day and night eat stool, and as soon as you get another opposite party, have sex. Doesn't matter whether it is daughter or mother or sister. That's all. Take Freud's philosophy and become highly advanced in civilization. Now the Freud's philosophy is being translated in Hindi and so many other languages. We are advancing in civilization, Indians. They are translating this Freud's philosophy, pig civilization. People therefore do not come to us. (chuckles) They avoid us because "They are not pigs."
Harikeśa: Pigs don't like to live in a clean house.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a story in Bhāgavata that Indra was cursed to become a pig. So after some time there was mismanagement in the heavenly kingdom. Brahmā personally came, "Indra, anyway, you became pig. Now you come with me." "Huh? How can I go? I have got so much responsibility." Then he was killed and took to heaven. So any life, any abominable condition, everyone is thinking, "I am perfect." This is called māyā. Any abominable condition, he is thinking, everyone is thinking, that "I am perfect. I have nothing to advance." This is called māyā. They do not know what is perfection. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. The ideal perfection they do not know. They are trying that "We shall make this pig life adjusted to civilized life." Is it possible? Pig life and adjusting to civilized life? Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall get down? [break] Nobody will accept. But if you explain that "You are no better than pigs and hogs and asses," then they will accept. So we have to take the idea from Bhāgavata and explain it for their understanding. That is wanted. [break] People are working so hard. Is it pleasure? But why they are working? They are working with the only hope that "Night, I shall go home, eat nicely and have sex with my wife." That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Otherwise why they will work so hard? Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...Los Angeles we have got a plant like this next to my window. That land for others, but it comes to my window. What is this?
Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What about the point, in certain places in Bhāgavatam it distinctly says that the human being's food is creatures of four legs with cloven hoof?
Harikeśa: It distinctly says in some places in Bhāgavatam that the human being's food is four-legged animals with a cloven hoof.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you remain animal. But that is not the ideal, that you remain animal. That is culture. If you want to remain animal, then it is all right. If you want to remain pig, you eat whatever you like. But if you don't want to remain a pig, then you have got to make discrimination. You have to take kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Because it is Bhāgavatam, it is written that one animal is food for another animal. That is for the animal. And I have already said that this Vedic civilization is meant for making the animal a perfect person.
Prabhupāda: That is gradually. Gradually. If he cannot give up meat-eating, so, "All right, don't eat cows' flesh. You eat hogs. That's all." But the real purpose is to stop meat-eating. And that is also under restriction. "You can eat one goat. Sacrifice it before Goddess Kālī under such and such rules and regulation. Then you take one piece of meat at night." So any sensible man—"Why I should undergo such rules and regulation for eating a little piece of meat? Better give it up." That is the idea. It is not that encouraging him. What is the meaning of encouraging? He is already eating meat? Why śāstra should... The real way, nivṛtteḥ... Pravṛttir eṣāṁ bhūtānāṁ nivṛttes tu mahā-phalam. The pravṛtti, the inclination, is there. Now train him to give it up. That is wanted. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1], that "Tapasya is your business." Tapo divyam. The human life is for tapasya-athāto brahma jijñāsā—only discussion on Brahman, to understand Brahman, and tapasya. Therefore you find in India so many saintly persons, highly educated brāhmaṇas, high literature, everything.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? One time you were explaining that Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with the Kazi, He convinced him about that the Koran does not actually advocate meat-eating.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Because the Muslims, they also cannot eat meat unless it is sacrificed in the mosque. There is no recommendation that you purchase from the market and the animal be slaughtered in the slaughterhouse.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In Arabia they were to eat animal but to save him from so many dangerous and sinful life—he has to kill so many goats—better kill one life, a camel or a cow. Camel is big animal. So if you kill one animal, camel, it is equal to fifty goats.
Prabhupāda: A cow is also big animal.
Prabhupāda: Yes... They don't say cow. They say better kill one big animal. "So instead of becoming sinful for killing so many animals, you better kill..." And that is also sacrificed in the mosque, and that is called koravāni. Restriction is there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there's no... The karma for killing many goats is more severe than killing one cow.
Prabhupāda: No, no. You become responsible for each and every animal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now if you can serve the purpose by killing one animal, why should you take the risk of killing many animals?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal is animal. And we say protect cow from economic point of view, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Without saving cows you cannot get good food, not from the animal point of view. You require milk and milk preparation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, if you want flesh, take that dead body and eat.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't they see this, that just by killing a cow you don't get more cows. They're going to die anyway.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is going to die, but they are so voracious, they do not wait up to the death, and they have theorized that "Dead animal is dangerous to health. Now kill while it is in life."
Harikeśa: Yes, they think like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but... They have got so many nonsense philosophy. But if that philosophy is supported, when you kill the animal, he becomes dead. (laughter)
Sudāmā: Yes, they call it "fresh meat."
Prabhupāda: Just see. "Fresh dead." Just see. The rascals are so fools that unless you make him dead, you cannot eat. So why do you theorize that a dead animal is not good?
Harikeśa: Well, 'cause he had to die from some cause, and that cause is...
Prabhupāda: Cause, all right. It is also cause. You are killing, that's all.
Harikeśa: The knife is clean, whereas the germs are...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Formerly the Hindus, they used to purchase meat and cook it in Ganges water. (laughter)
Harikeśa: Purify it.
Prabhupāda: They thought, "Now it is..." And you will still find in Calcutta, "Hindu butcher." That Hindu butcher is pure. You have been in Calcutta? So they are going on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Ramakrishna Mission, they take mother's prasādam. And they call...
Sudāmā: Even they kill fresh, Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they will kill a cow who has some disease in liver, and then they will eat and they will all die...
Prabhupāda: Well, they manufacture so many ways. That does not mean we have to support it. We accept that these are animals, that's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? There's a... I was telling. We were talking this morning that in America they have a custom. The children, when they eat a dead, like a bird or something, a turkey. There is one part, I think it's the breastbone. So the children, after one of them finishes eating the breastbone, they both hold, each hold one end, and they break it, and whoever has the biggest part... Each one makes a wish. Whoever gets the biggest part, they think that their wish will be fulfilled. So this is a rākṣasa civilization. So I am only amazed how you were able to make such a big movement with so many, such rākṣasas as we are. That was what I was thinking, that we were the people who were doing that, and that you have delivered us.
Prabhupāda: And therefore people are surprised that "How this man is doing like this?" They are surprised. Everyone is surprised.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't imagine how fallen we were. I don't think they think it's really possible to reform so...
Prabhupāda: It is impossible.
Sudāmā: Therefore they think that we are hypnotized.
Prabhupāda: Even Śrīdhara Mahārāja says that "This pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, we simply thought that it is an ideal, but you have practically done this." He admits that.
Dayānanda: In London you said that you were changing crows to swans.
Dayānanda: It is impossible to change a crow to swan but you are changing crows to swans.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in reading the description of Jagāi and Mādhāi, they don't seem as bad as we were.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) We shall go this way? No.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha: "I am lower than the Jagāi Mādhāi."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "And to utter my name..." I think the next verse he says, "To utter my name will bring all..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mora nāma śune yei tāra puṇya kṣaya: "If one takes my name, then whatever little pious activities you have, it is spoiled." Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha [Cc. Ādi 5.205], jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha. Mora nāma śune yei tāra puṇya kṣaya. How humble he is.
Hari-śauri: He was thinking, "He saved Jagāi and Mādhāi, but I am so low that I am not able to see Him."
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Jagāi-Mādhāi was delivered, but I am so lower that I have no chance of being delivered." Pratāparudra Mahārāja.
Harikeśa: It's inconceivable how he could think like that.
Prabhupāda: No, every Vaiṣṇava thinks like that. A Vaiṣṇava never thinks, "I have become perfect." Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, what to speak of others. [break] ...are carrying cement? Hm? (end)
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