May 11, 1975, Perth
Prabhupāda: ...only sun.
Amogha: What are the stars exactly, they're other planets or...?
Prabhupāda: They're planets, (indistinct) planets.
Amogha: Are they self-luminating like the moon?
Amogha: Ah, "Of luminaries, I am the moon."
Amogha: Very soon the United States is sending up one rocket and Russia is sending up another rocket and they are joining in space and they think this is progress. They'll join together up there. They hope someday they'll be able to stay in a station like that and then go out to some planet.
Prabhupāda: They could not mix in this planet, they are going to mix in another planet.
Srutakirti: They'll probably have some argument in outer space. The astronauts will get into a fight.
Prabhupāda: The rascal could not compromise here, they're going in the sky. All mental concoction.
Gaṇeśa: They actually have never got to the moon.
Amogha: He says did they actually get to the moon or not?
Prabhupāda: That I am doubtful. Always. [break] ...doubt always. They have... They might have gone... Mostly, most probably they have not gone. Simply propaganda. But even they have gone, not to moon. Maybe the Rahu planet. Or there are so many other planets.
Prabhupāda: Rahu planet orbit is in between moon and sun. So when it comes in between moon and sun there is eclipse. At night it is eclipse in the moon, and daytime it is eclipse in the sun.
Amogha: They used to think that because there is overpopulation we will go to another planet and then begin living there.
Prabhupāda: No question of overpopulation. There are so many land. You do not know how to live. There is no question of overpopulation. You want to live like cats and dogs. Therefore you fight; there is scarcity. If you live properly, there is no question of scarcity. [break] Otherwise it is perfect. Everything is perfect. There is no question of inconvenience. You live according to the direction of Bhagavad-gītā; there is no question of scarcity, inconvenience, overpopulation. Everything is made.
Amogha: People just take it for granted that...
Amogha: Due to the propaganda, people take it for granted, "Yes, there is overpopulation. Yes, there is lack of food. There is starvation, this and that."
Prabhupāda: Because they cannot manage, so they give some other cause.
Amogha: Yeah. They blame it on nature.
Amogha: But they don't know that nature's arrangement is perfect.
Paramahaṁsa: They spend billions of dollars to try to go in space, but they don't spend that money for food.
Devotee (1): In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says He creates the four varṇas and āśramas, so these four classes of men are everywhere. I was just wondering if it is correct to say that each man only finds his satisfaction performing a particular type of work according to his mode of nature? Is that correct?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Devotee (1): For instance, a man who is in the mode of passion like a kṣatriya, he only finds satisfaction when he's engaged in warfare or administrative work. Similarly so with a vaiśya or a śūdra...
Prabhupāda: Yes. I think it is... Maybe it is described in Seventeenth Chapter. According to our free will, we are associating with certain type of the modes of material nature, and then we become subjected to that material modes. The same example: you infect some disease, contamination, and you gain the result of it. So our endeavor should be how to raise ourself to the first, to the sattva-guṇa. That we can do. And then transcend sattva-guṇa and reach the spiritual platform. Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guṇa, ignorance. So rise from tamo-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to sattva-guṇa, and then sattva-guṇa to transcendence. That is improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guṇa and few of them in rajo-guṇa. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, that the education-students, they are discussing about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, lusty desires, very prominent, and how to fulfill, by homosex or sex with woman. This is their subject matter, kāma. So everyone in this material world infected with this tamo-guṇa, all lusty desires, in various ways, varieties. And some of them in rajo-guṇa-politics and improvement of material condition. So we have to cut down this tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, come to the sattva-guṇa. Then he'll not be disturbed by these lusty desires and greediness. Then he'll be happy. Sthita-sattve prasīdati. When he comes to the sattva-guṇa, now he has to make further progress, sattva-guṇa. And the progress means, being situated in sattva-guṇa if he advances in devotional service, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he surpasses all the material qualities. That is perfection of life.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it that when a devotee is situated in the mode of goodness and that...
Prabhupāda: Devotee is situated above goodness.
Devotee (2): Transcendental.
Devotee (2): Is it still that there's greed and lust there, but he becomes transcendental to it? Or are the greed and lust...?
Prabhupāda: Degradation can take place at any moment. We are in the material world. It is the degraded place. So infection can take place at any moment.
Devotee (2): It's always trying to creep in.
Prabhupāda: But if you remain steady in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then it will not touch; you'll not be infected. If you take proper vaccine, so even though you are in the diseased condition, you will not be infected. Otherwise there is chance of being infected of anyone.
Devotee (1): So if we devotees...
Srutakirti: Better move over. (Car approaches and passes)
Prabhupāda: Why they are coming here?
Devotee (1): They're coming to fish and to surf.
Prabhupāda: Waste time. Finding out opportunity how to waste valuable time. They do not know that every moment they are dying. Dying, death has begun since he, one takes birth. And our business is before dying we must be prepared for the next life. But they have no knowledge. That is ignorance, tamo-guṇa.
Devotee (1): So if we as devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are transcendental to these modes, does that mean that we can...
Prabhupāda: You are not transcendental. You are trying to be transcendental. You should always remember that "We are trying to be transcendental." When you are actually on transcendental state, you will not be affected by any modes of material nature. Therefore you should be very cautious and careful. Just like on the sea, you are in the boat. You are transcendental. But the boat may can merge into the water any moment unless you are very carefully plying it. At any moment. You are not in the water, you are safe on the boat, but if you do not carefully ply your boat, then you can fall down at any moment. The comparison is given, nṛ-deham ādyam sulabhaṁ sudurlabhaṁ. Sulabhaṁ. This human form of body is just like a very nice boat to cross over this ocean of ignorance, and the guru is the pilot or the captain. And the śāstras are favorable wind. Just like if you are going this direction, if the wind is blowing this..., then automatically your boat is pushed. And behind the boat, what is called, the boat, that thing? He takes the...
Amogha: The oar, rudder...
Srutakirti: The oarsman. Oarsmen.
Prabhupāda: Oarsman, all of them are. Chief?
Amogha: The steersman or the pilot?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the chief man. So the guru is there. He is the chief man, giving direction, or the captain. And others are plying, and the boat is also strong, and the wind is also favorable. In this circumstances, if you cannot cross, then you make suicide. The śāstras are there. That is favorable wind. You get the way. And the spiritual master is directing, "Do like this." And you have got a nice boat and you are plying. Now cross over. Very big ocean in the material world. Just see the sky, how big it is. So we have to cross this material sky, penetrate the covering, then go to the spiritual sky. Then you are safe. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. That place, even after destruction of this whole material world, that is safe. So we have to go there, plying the boat. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "You rascal, give up everything. Surrender unto Me. And surrender unto Me. Follow My instruction as I have given. Then you are safe." But that they will not do. They will try to cheat Kṛṣṇa by interpretation, "This means this. This means that." That they will do, these rascals, big, big rascals. Kṛṣṇa says something, and they will misinterpret. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "No, no, it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Just see how misleading these rascals. Why you should interpret upon Kṛṣṇa's word? If you have got your own philosophy, you write another book. Why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā? This is their cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is a popular book. Gandhi also took Bhagavad-gītā for his political diplomacy. This is going on. And they'll never agree to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They'll never agree. The other day I was there in Kurukṣetra. They have got their own plan-mānava-dharma, this dharma, that dharma. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "You give up all these. Kick out all this so-called rascaldom. You just surrender unto Me." That they will not do. Except this, everything which is going on in the name of religion, that is cheating. Everyone is misinterpret... Just like Christians, they have misinterpreted: "Kill means murder. It is meant for man." That means they are making their own lusty desires fulfilled in the name of Bible, that's all. Everyone is doing like that. They are changing. Mass opinion is now homosex. They are passing abortion. They are passing... What is this? This is their business. For fulfillment of their lusty desires and greediness, they are bringing the authority of Bible, Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on in the name of religion.
Devotee (1): They swear on the Bible in the court. And I was reading in the paper the other day that now in England they have passed a law whereby a man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to be raped.
Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Woman?
Devotee (1): They said that the man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to his raping her.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology.
Devotee (1): So what this law means is that anybody can rape anybody.
Prabhupāda: There is no law; it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The śāstra has... It is lusty desire, that's all. Everyone wants to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvaḥ kāma-lobhadayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. It is all discussed in the śāstra. Just like I am hungry man. There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal, and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say "legalized prostitution." They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that's all. The passion and the desire is the same, either married or not married. So this Vedic law says, "Better married. Then you will be controlled." Married life... So he will not be so lusty as without married life. So the gṛhastha life is a concession-same lusty desire under rules and regulation. That's all. That is our higher... (?) Without married life he will commit rapes in so many ways, so better let him be satisfied with one, both the man and woman, and make progress in spiritual life. That is concession. Everyone in this material world has come with these lusty desires and greediness. Even demigods like Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā... The Lord Brahmā became lusty after his daughter. And Lord Śiva became so mad after Mohinī-murti. So what to speak of us insignificant creatures. So lusty desire is there. That is material world. Unless one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this lusty desire cannot be checked. It is not possible.
Devotee (1): So how is it that Lord Brahmā is a pure devotee...
Prabhupāda: No, he is not pure devotee.
Devotee (1): He's not.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is in the material world, he is not pure devotee. He has to become a pure devotee. But there are pure devotees. They come. They are not subjected to all this. They come for the deliverance of the fallen souls. They are above Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva.
Devotee (2): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't Lord Brahmā the original spiritual master in our sampradāya?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we should take that it was his līlā to show that "Even I am subjected. How much you should take risk here." We should take like that because he's our guru. We should not take him that he was subjected to lusty desires, but he made a show that "Even I am also subjected." And he gave up this, changed the body for that. Therefore we should not observe if there is a show of fault of the guru. We should take a different way. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya [SB 10.33.29]. Just like the sun is soaking water from urine, but we should not imitate that, that "We also, let us take urine." Then you'll die. He can do so. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya. The sun can do that. Still he is not affected. Everyone knows the sun soaks water from the urine. But should you imitate that: "Oh, let me take urine"? No. It is not for you. That is advised. Īśvaranam, those who are īśvaras, the controllers, there is no fault. You should not imitate them; simply you should imitate their instruction. Not that their activities which we may not understand, why he is doing that.
Paramahaṁsa: In the beginning stage of devotional service when we are trying to make advancement, we have to tolerate the urges of the senses. But is there a point...
Prabhupāda: That is tapasya.
Prabhupāda: That is tapasya, that voluntarily we accept some inconvenience. That is called tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. The tapasa means first brahmacarya, how to avoid sex desire. That is the first tapasa. Tapasā brahmacaryena samena vā, yamena niyamena vā, damena tyāgena satya-śaucābhyām [SB 6.1.13]. The steps are there. So tapasā, tapasā... Tapasya means first brahmacarya, how to restrain this sex desire. That is first step. Where is their tapasya? "It is very difficult to do this tapasya. Oh." Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra regularly, you'll be cured. Otherwise, regular tapasya is almost impossible nowadays.
Paramahaṁsa: Is there a stage after a person becomes completely purified...?
Prabhupāda: The students, they are going to school, college, and they are talking of sex. Where is tapasya? How it is possible? So therefore bhakti-yoga is the only way of spiritual improvement in this age—all age, especially in this age. No other method will help you-yoga, karma, jñāna, nothing. Bhakti-yoga is always strong, especially in this age, Kali-yuga. Therefore it is said, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva, especially. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. This is the simplest. But people do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. They are so much in ignorance. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is ultimate goal. Simply like cats and dogs. The dog jumps over with four legs, and if a man can jump over with four wheels, then that is advance. Just see. They think, "Now we are advanced. We have got four-wheel car to jump over. And the dog is jumping with legs. Therefore this is advanced." They do not know this is also the same dog's business. They do not know it. [break] ...again they have made this car, coming from miles away, but the business is fishing. Just see. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. "Advancement of civilization, we have got car, we are nicely dressed, we are human being, ev..." But what is your business? Fishing. Bambhārambhe... Ārambha, gorgeous arrangement—the business is the same. The skylark, what is called? Skylark? These birds?
Devotee (1): Oh, the seagulls. Seagull.
Prabhupāda: Oh, seagull. They are doing the same business, and after his much advancement of civilization, he is doing the same business. The tiger is also eating flesh and blood, and human being—a scientific slaughterhouse. The same business, but they have got scientific instrument how to cut the throat quickly. This is the advance, advancement of civilization. The dog and cat they are having sex on the open street, and now they are talking of homosex in the school, colleges for education. This is their position. They do not know even what is the standard of human civilization. If you are doing the same business like ordinary animals, then where is the advancement of civilization? Where they have gone by crossing here?
Devotee (2): I think they went up that path out there, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Here, this way?
Devotee (2): Yes, I think so.
Devotee (1): It leads to the beach.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā it says that happiness in the mode of goodness is in the beginning is like poison but at the end it is like nectar. Where does the poison end and where does the sweetness begin?
Prabhupāda: Sweetness? That is false sweetness. Just like sexual intercourse. This is sweet, but aftereffect is very poisonous. Either illicit or legal, the aftereffect is very... You have to take care of the children, the child is diseased, go to the doctor and this, that, so many, maintenance... And illicit—then this charge of rape case and so many other things. So both of them, in the beginning it is very happy, but at the end it is very distressing. That is material happiness. Everyone knows it, that it is distasteful. But still, he does that. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Therefore this kṛpanāḥ... Kṛpanāḥ means miser or foolish person.
Devotee (1): [break] ...till they give up their lusty desires.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required because unless you give up your lusty desires, you will have to remain in this material world, and to remain in the material means suffering. If you actually do not want suffering, then you have to practice all these things so that you can go to the spiritual world. That is the aim of life. And for going to the spiritual world, you have to be completely, cent percent free from all material desires. And so long you will have material desires, you have to accept one material body. Nature is so kind, or the law of nature is so perfect. As long as you will have a little pinch of material desire, then you will have to accept. That's all. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad... And that material life means you may become a grass or you may become a demigod like Brahmā. That will depend on your desire. But you will have to accept. (end)