Room Conversation with Devotees
August 1, 1975, New Orleans
Prabhupāda: That is time for punishment. They should build up their character, śamaḥ, damaḥ, fully controlled. When they like, they become gṛhasthas. Otherwise they are controlled. That is brāhmaṇa. For brāhmaṇa it is not compulsory to marry. Kṣatriyas may marry more than one wife. They can take. So all girls must be married. That is... They must...They must have one husband, even the husband has got fifty wives. Then the problem of girls' marriage will be solved. And as soon as one girl is pregnant, she should be separated.
Hṛdayānanda: From the husband.
Prabhupāda: At least for one and half years.
Upendra: At the moment of pregnancy? From the moment of pregnancy one and a half years?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Pregnancy is understood at three months. From that month till further, sixteen months at least, she should not come to be near husband. That is eka-kadi (?). The child does not live. And they are not inclined to come unless a man induces. So the man, if he has got more than one wife, so man will not disturb her. And she will take rest for the next eighteen months. So after ten months she will give birth to the child, and for six months continually she will take care of the child. Feeding the child with breast milk, the child will be healthy. If the child can take mother's milk for six months at least continually, he'll become healthy for life.
Upendra: Where do they send that mother?
Prabhupāda: Where they'll take care.
Upendra: If the man sends the woman away, where does she...?
Prabhupāda: Our aim is not to give help, but not... Generally she goes to the father's house. So you can have separate building for that.
Nityānanda: Are you saying that our men should have more than one wife?
Prabhupāda: I have no objection.
Satsvarūpa: That's a difficult proposition.
Satsvarūpa: It's not allowed in this country. It's illegal. It's against the law.
Devotee: It's against the law.
Nityānanda: No, it's a matter of... No one knows who is married or unmarried, but if you have...
Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult.
Satsvarūpa: Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select. Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives.
Prabhupāda: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don't want. We don't want ordinary karmīs and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we'll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.
Satsvarūpa: Everything we do, we don't hide it. We show the world what we're doing. I don't see how we could hide that one man had many different wives.
Prabhupāda: If you don't call wife, you can have. The law allows you to keep boyfriend, girlfriend. Then the... Instead of calling "husband," call "friend." That's all. But, er, it is risky and the man must be responsible to keep... To keep more than one wife by trained-up man is not disallowed.
Brahmānanda : But I think they thought that he could get it legally established, at least in the state of California.
Prabhupāda: Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California.
Nityānanda: The general public objects to that... It's very...
Prabhupāda: Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mūḍhas, they have been described, mūḍhas. You know the meaning of mūḍha?
Devotee (1): Ass.
Nityānanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food independently?
Prabhupāda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Community means work everything for the community.
Devotee (1): Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the cows, some men... They can (indistinct) responsible.
Prabhupāda: No, it is service (?).
Upendra: One question I have, Prabhupāda... When I heard about New Vrindaban... I've not been there myself, so I cannot say firsthand, but I've talked with devotees have been there.
Upendra: One would think because there's land and room for vegetables and there are so many cows that there would be a plentiful supply of milk, but I understand that they use powdered milk. The devotees use powdered milk there.
Upendra: Because they make all the milk into ghee and distribute it. And vegetables... I heard that at the temple that they use powdered milk. In Philadelphia I questioned the... That carpenter who made your table? He (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Why powdered milk if there is sufficient milk?
Upendra: I don't know. I can't say firsthand, but from the man who lived there, one of the householders who lived there, he said powdered milk...
Prabhupāda: I don't think so.
Devotee (1): I have heard that.
Prabhupāda: No. This is not good. Ghee should be prepared where there is no more use. The Indian village, simply by keeping cows, they... Just like Nanda Mahārāja was keeping cows. Similarly there are many villages. So the system is: they have got a big pan, and whatever milk is collected, put into that pan. It is being warmed. So they drink, the whole family members. They drink milk whenever they like. So whatever milk remains at night, they have to convert it into yogurt. The next day they use milk and yogurt also, as he likes. Then, after converting the milk into yogurt, still, it remains. It is stocked. So when there is sufficient old yogurt, they churn it and then butter comes out. So they take the butter, and the water separated from the butter, that is called whey? Whey, yes. So they... Instead of dahl, they use this whey, for capati. It will be very healthy and tasty. And then the butter they turn into ghee. So where is the loss, (indistinct)? You require (indistinct).
Satsvarūpa: Only after the whole milk is consumed, then the other...
Prabhupāda: Milk you are collecting. So put in the pan. I have already explained. From milk stage to yogurt, yogurt to old yogurt, from old yogurt to butter, and then water, that whey. Then butter convert into ghee and whey, you can use, instead of drinking water, drink whey. Not a single drop of milk will be wasted, if you know how to do it. And you can take as much milk as possible, because ultimately it is going to be ghee. So if you start in the cities, nice restaurant, so ghee can be sold there. They'll pay for that. And they can prepare nice preparations, kachoris, samosa, sweetballs. Or milk, if you don't convert into yogurt, then naturally it will become... What is called?
Prabhupāda: Curd. So curd you can send to the city. They will convert into sandeśa, rasagullā and other preparations, and ghee. That is being done. In India the villagers, they do that. They are, keep cows. Convert them into curd or ghee, and ghee and curd sent to the city, they have got regular price for that. There is no question of waste of milk at any stage. One must know how to do it. So you can keep as many cows as possible and collect as much milk from them. You can utilize. And if some of the villagers trained up, they can open nice restaurant in the city. Utilize the ghee, curd, for making nice confectionary. People will purchase like anything. Just like in our Rathayātrā festival, whatever sweets they prepared, all sold at good profit. Your countrymen, they did not see such nice things. And when they taste it—"Very nice."
Brahmānanda: They were selling one gulabjamin for seventy-five cents.
Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughs) It may cost two cent. And you have got your sugar also. In this way organize. Avoid machine. Keep everyone employed as brāhmaṇa, as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. Nobody should sit down. Brāhmaṇas, they are writers, editors, lecturers, instructors, worshiping Deity, ideal character. They have no anxiety for food, for clothing. Others should supply them. They haven't got to work. Sannyāsī is always preaching, going outside. In this way keep everyone fully engaged. Then it will be ideal. Otherwise people will criticize that we are simply eating and sleeping, escaping, so many, so many. And actually that is the position. Unless one is fully engaged, oh, that is not good. That is tamo-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, and rajo-guṇa very active, and sattva-guṇa, intellectual activity. Both of them, active, only tamo-guṇa, not active. (indistinct) Tamo-guṇa means sleeping and laziness. These are the symptoms of tamo-guṇa. Every saintly man can avoid these two things—laziness and sleeping. Of course, as much you require, sleeping allowed, not more than... And keep everyone active, man or woman-all. Then it will be ideal society.
Nityānanda: Without a machine how can you make sugar from the cane?
Prabhupāda: Hand machine.
Nityānanda: Hand machine?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood. They do that. We are not against machine. You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine. This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that's good, but not at the risk of keeping others unemployed. This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine. These rascals, they do not know. They're taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society. And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct) The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy, a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals.
Brahmānanda: In New York City they now have one million people who are receiving welfare.
Prabhupāda: And all criminals.
Brahmānanda: Yes. All criminals, prostitutes, and hippies.
Prabhupāda: Because the government is paying for that, and they are now thinking that "What to do about crime?" This is rascaldom. You act in such a way, then repent later on.
Brahmānanda: There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into māyā. He returned to Sweden. Now he's getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he's using that money to buy drugs. So now he's completely trapped.
Brahmānanda: He gets money regularly, and he can never get out of the habit.
Prabhupāda: In your country also. One keeps a girlfriend, the girl's getting welfare, and he is purchasing drugs, and then their husband goes. I have seen. Some of our students have been. I have seen them.
Satsvarūpa: That's very prominent.
Prabhupāda: And making trade. That is going on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the... Do the vaiśyas cultivate the fields or the śūdras cultivate the fields?
Jagadīśa: Is it the duty of the vaiśyas to cultivate the fields or...?
Prabhupāda: Actually it is the duty of the vaiśyas, but the śūdras can help everyone, the helpers. The śūdras will help the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, as well as the vaiśyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are śūdras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying śāstras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brāhmaṇa. They haven't got to work as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brāhmaṇa, with good character.
Devotee (1): Distributing books?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaiśya, trade. It is a trade. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Kṛṣi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaiśya. So vaiśya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brāhmaṇa should be very highly learned scholar. So the brāhmaṇas will give advice to the kṣatriya how to rule, and the kṣatriya will levy tax, and vaiśyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.
Devotee: What kind of tax?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Tax means... Everyone must have some income for maintaining. So brāhmaṇas, they(?) doesn't require any... They will live on the contribution of the society. Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly, brāhmaṇa will live at the cost of others' contribution. That is source of income. Kṣatriyas, they'll levy tax. Kṣatriya is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the vaiśyas, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that "I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty-five percent."
Brahmānanda: Twenty-five percent of the produce?
Prabhupāda: Whatever you have produced.
Brahmānanda: Not necessarily money.
Brahmānanda: But the produce.
Brahmānanda: The grains or the milk or whatever.
Prabhupāda: Whatever, yes. "Give me twenty-five percent. You can utilize the land." So that is resource of the land.
Devotee (1): How does the kṣatriya build a palace for himself or something like that?
Prabhupāda: That will be done. To keep a prestigious position, they'll have building, servant, soldiers. Otherwise how they will fear? How they'll have respect?
Devotee (1): So the kṣatriya is the predominator of the land.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣatriya is the owner of the land.
Devotee (1): And he can take the stones and men and build a big, nice...
Prabhupāda: They, śūdras are there. Give him his eating, and some hand, pocket expense, hand expense, regular. If one can eat, then he has no demand. So the laborer has to be given to eat sumptuously. "Eat and work, take some pocket..." They will be (indistinct). Not that you call professional laborer and you have to pay twenty-five dollars per hour. That is nuisance. They'll drink. That's all. And not that everyone should have nice house. Why? What is the use? Go in the village, live simple, produce food. That's all. Eat. Why this electricity and three-hundred story building and...? And then you don't produce anything, eat fish. "And let me eat..." Artificial. It is very easy to take the animals in the city and slaughter. A little vegetable and milk, they are satisfied.
Jagadīśa: Even in the culture of Europe they had kings who had a certain territory and then they would appoint men called vassals to take care of different sections and then the serfs would work on the land.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is system, whole world. They were called... In India they were called zamindars, Mohammedans, and the Hindu zamindars, small kings. The zamindars are called king also. Anyone who owns land, he is called king.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was therefore called king. But he was a vaiśya. He engaged his land for agriculture and cow keeping. And Kṛṣṇa took charge of the cows, the calves, although still calf, He, (indistinct) This is the system. He was going with the calves whole day, playing with the boys and taking care of the cows, in the evening come back. Mother then washes and bathes and gives nice food. And immediately goes to sleep. And Kṛṣṇa is clever. At night He goes to the gopīs. (laughter) Then mother Yaśodā did not know, when she thought, "My good son is sleeping." And the gopīs also would come at a place and they'll dance. This is called life, childhood life. And when He was grown up, then He was brought to, I mean to say, Mathurā and He fought with His maternal uncle, killed him, and then His father Vasudeva, took care, sent Him to, what is that? Sāndīpani Muni. He was educated. He was learning every subject every day. Then He was taken to Dvārakā, married so many queens, and became king. In the Kṛṣṇa's life, He's always busy. Kṛṣṇa... You'll never find from the very beginning of His life He's busy killing Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura, and His friends, they are confident. They'll enter into the mouth of Aghasura. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is there. He will kill." This is Vṛndāvana. There is no need and I don't find in Bhāgavata big factory and slaughterhouse, no. Nothing. The whole atmosphere is surcharged with sinful life. How people will be happy? Now they are coming to crimes and hippies and so many things, problems, diplomacy, CIA and what other? So many unnecessary waste of energy, time, and money. Vicious condition. Better give up city. Make Vṛndāvana, like this. City life is abominable. If you don't live in the city, you don't require petrol, motor car. It is no use. They may criticize that "You are going to the farm in a car." So for the time being, there is no vehicle. Otherwise bullock cart—where is the difficulty? Suppose you are coming, one hour, and it takes one day. And if you are satisfied, such life, there is no question of moving. Maybe local moving, from this village to that village. That is sufficient, bullock carts. Why motor car? Drive here and park problem. Not only park problem, there are so many things. There are three thousand parts, motor car. You have to produce them, big factory.
Prabhupāda: Insur... So much! Everyone is being (indistinct). We do not decry, but we point out, "In this way our valuable time of life is being wasted." They say it is primitive life, but it is peaceful life. We want peaceful life and save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not primitive. That is intelligent life.
Satsvarūpa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kṣatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others...
Prabhupāda: No... Kṣatriyas, I have already explained who is brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya according to guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brāhmaṇa, become brāhmaṇa. If you are fit to become kṣatriya, become kṣatriya. If you are fit to become śūdra, do it. Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is śūdra. That's all. "Help. Help the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and take your food and little pocket expense. That's all." Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don't require, but even if it is required we can give.
Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...
Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class...
Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management.
Nityānanda: How many kṣatriyas can I have on this farm? How many kṣatriyas can we have on one farm?
Prabhupāda: I told. Find out who is going to be kṣatriya. Then... Take your time (?).
Nityānanda: You can have more than one?
Prabhupāda: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaiśya, let them become vaiśya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brāhmaṇa, let him work as brāhmaṇa. Let him work as kṣatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as śūdra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And śūdras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.
Prabhupāda: Cobbler is less than śūdra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he'll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that "Professor such-and-such," and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brāhmaṇa—teacher means brāhmaṇa—and eating meat-Oh, horrible! Śyāmasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I'll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world... And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live... Andhā yathāndhair... They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakāra. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible... This is human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: "Now, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is my profession. I'm getting very easily food and shelter." Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakāra, actually benefiting the others. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased: "Oh, he is trying." 'Cause Kṛṣṇa personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I'll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sees that you are, on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, you are trying to save these rascals, then He'll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they're all going to hell. Nature's law is very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa has given: "You work in this way." She'll work. She'll work. She'll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy—you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary-indigestion. "Indigestion, starve." This is nature's law. Nature will act. But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that "You don't do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries." Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava's qualification is para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is unhappy by seeing others' distress. This is Vaiṣṇava. (end)
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