Prabhupada: :...disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious (indistinct) is an opiate of the (indistinct). It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana. To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come. Then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for pan... I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and...

Guest (Indian man): Signatures of them.

Prabhupada: Many thousands many lakhs. And this is one point... And we prove from sastric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad-gita, that catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna. Bhajana, bhajante, this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukrtinah. And just opposite number is duskrtinah, miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious man, recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, and Bhagavad-gita is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic sastra as,... It is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kirtana, bhajana-kirtana, kirtana is concerned, Krsna has said, satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14]. These are the symptoms of mahatmas. So we have to make position that bhajana is so important. And Bhagavad-gita is meant for all solution of material problems, but we are not accepting it. So why not try to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gita. And the most easiest process, satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14], always chanting Hare Krsna mantra. "So you please come with us. We are foreigners, but we know Krsna is not for this or that. Therefore we have taken seriously this, here. So why, Indians, you are lacking here? This is... You come forward. You are educated youths, gentlemen. You take your culture. We have taken our cul..., your culture. It is not 'your-our,' but you think that it is your culture. But Krsna is neither for Indian or for you. He's for everyone. So therefore we have taken to Krsna. So why not try this, that it is stated in the..., that kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by krsna-kirtana, one becomes free from all contamination. So why not join with us? What is the wrong there? It is stated in your sastra. And we have adopted it. And we are feeling actually better. So why you are so much callous, you educated youths, gentlemen?" This has to made propaganda. And let them come. At least, Sunday morning. And... It is roaming like this?

Guest: Eh?

Prabhupada: It is revolving?

Hari-sauri: (indistinct) Srivasa Pandita.

Guest: I think we can also fix it.

Prabhupada: No, revolving is.

Guest: You want revolving? Is it on?

Hari-sauri: Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good though.

Prabhupada: This will be propaganda and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that "Here the Radha-Krsna temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signatures. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, so there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective.

Guest: ...ji? May I submit a matter?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: This about propaganda and collecting the signatures in the lakhs will not only take a lot of energy of the devotees, but it will take more time also. It is, in the city of Bombay, it is not practicable. Because people are very busy, and around the clock everybody is counting every second which he spends and more so, it's difficult for people to devote time towards a sat-sanga or to sign the letter that they had no objection and on the contrary, the action of the police commissioner is condemnable, undesirable. That will take a lot of time. And I think by writing them a letter, by of our reconsidering, we lose nothing.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest: By writing them a petition.

Prabhupada: But if... It has no effect.

Guest: I don't say there is no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice...

Prabhupada: Then, then you have to go, public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaisnavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance, essential.

Guest: No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people that the bhajanas, and the kirtanas are a nuisance because...

Prabhupada: No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the sastras.

Guest: So therefore... You see, the authors of the sastras... sastra big authors who are good so-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the sastras, but the government which is so-called secular or pro-muslim and the pro-communist...

Prabhupada: No, no, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your one sastra.

Guest: Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not...

Prabhupada: So that is to be decided by the court.

Guest: Therefore... I'm coming on that. What I say on the prima facie, the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection, of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple, is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is going. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The position was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of position, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty man. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was, I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said, "may be." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said, "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. It "may be." That means the option is equally open: "May not be," also. That's only (indistinct) has been taken without any basis of policy.

Prabhupada: That is your second item.

Guest: And our... I'll finish that. Now, third is in the constitution rights. Now, under the constitution of India ever person, body or organization has been given the liberty and the equal right to propagate any religion. Under the constitution, I have got a liberty to express my path for any religion. Of course, Krsna consciousness, according to me, is not a religion because it is universal. It is not for any sector.

Prabhupada: (about fan) It is not moving like that, revolving?

Satsvarupa: No, the other one is not working.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Guest: I don't require anything, Guru Maharaja.

Prabhupada: Oh, all right. But make it full force. This is full? (Sound of loud fan coming on.)

Yasomatinandana: This revolves, but I don't know how.

Prabhupada: I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There, there is no Indian.

Guest: That's what will come in the way.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: That I've been telling Tamala Krsna also, that you should have some Indians.

Prabhupada: No, should have, but no Indians are coming.

Guest: No, but then you should appoint somebody, you know.

Prabhupada: No, we cannot appoint. That is not. That is not possible. We cannot appoint. That is useless. Paid men is useless.

Guest: Paid... Appointed does not mean that you pay them. Appointing can be honorary also. I don't say that you pay them.

Prabhupada: So who is honorary coming. They are also honorary, but who is dedicating...

Guest: So you should have in India those people...

Prabhupada: "I should have" means you, if you become "should have." Otherwise...

Guest: I don't mind becoming, or you can have somebody...

Prabhupada: Nobody is taking seriously, Indian. So many years we are here. How many Indian-educated youths are coming? They are not interested.

Guest: Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some...

Prabhupada: Then that... No, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the... But in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes that if they make it without... Just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that... There, they understand that these Americans making this satyagrama (?), or as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my, so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaisnavas, they combine together that "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out."

Guest: Yes, they can throw them out. No, my intention was not that this movement should be by foreigners because that will be against them. What I was meaning to. They should be...

Prabhupada: That should be taken. Therefore I say, hold meeting, and the Hindus, the Vaisnavas, they should take action. Not Americans. There may be Americans, but they'll...

Guest: No, what I say that Americans may organize it, but the participants should be Indians.

Prabhupada: No, organize... They have actually come to me. They were attracted with Krsna conscious philosophy. Therefore they have come to me. They did not expect that Indian government, although the money has been paid by them, and still, the Indian government is against this movement. They were not prepared for all these things. Unfortunately, these things are happening in India. We had no such difficulty in any part. Only the less intelligent class, they are... Just like in Africa, they are "junglese."

Guest: Uncivilized.

Prabhupada: Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India where the civilization is supposed to be so... And actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that "Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what, how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad-gita... Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gita. It is said, catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrti... Gandhi was chanting in temple: Raghupati raghava. So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana, take prasadam, and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and... I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kirtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gita. And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance, essential, we want it, and the other thing, we are making gate in and out to get... Submit a plan like that, that this is... There will be no... That may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architects, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come..." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasadam, and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. Then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha (?) is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha, and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so.

Guest: Yes, Rajasthan.

Prabhupada: Rajasthan. So the government is so rogue that hungry men they have come and we are firing. And the... Your sva-raja was obtained by nonviolence. This is the result. Actually, you cannot expect any justice from this government.

Guest: One has to snatch the justice from them.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: Not by begging or mercy. Even the Gujarat, the people people which they have done, how they have got this liberty or whatever it is, is all by fighting, by firing back to government. Otherwise the government has the majority of the assembly. Congress Party (indistinct). How they will resolve it? It is the first time there is a majority of the members of assembly could be resolved because people do not want it. It's unconstitutional, but yet, (indistinct) constitutional method has been adopted because they...

Prabhupada: And they have smashed the speaking.

Guest: Yes.

Yasomatinandana: The Hindustan people lied doing that.

Guest: Nothing lied. They will say a lie is nothing for the sake of liberty.

Prabhupada: What is that liberty? Therefore we have to educate public that the...

Guest: And another thing, regarding the propaganda, as you said rightfully, that that propaganda you have to make in the city and not in the Juhu area. Because here...

Prabhupada: No, no, in the city. I have told you. A big, big hall.

Guest: Yes. A big halls or a pandal as we had held two years back.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Guest: I don't know how you have got the sanction.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.

Guest: And there the people can come in the thousands and...

Prabhupada: Yes, that I have already said.

Guest: ...on the neighboring stand, we should raise...

Prabhupada: No, we request them that "You have taken so many ways, but your problems are not... Why not take this simple problem? Come with us, chant Hare Krsna mantra and try to understand little, one sloka from Bhagavad-gita. What is the...? You have no loss. But if you do it, we assure you the solution is there, all solution." Let us make this propaganda. Never mind, they do not sanction forever. It doesn't matter. But this propaganda wanted. What is that temple? Temple, there are many thousands.

Guest: Last year or two years back, we had lots of (indistinct) central playground (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Make that. And give them prasadam. Let them have sankirtana. Here, that meeting will be done here. In this way make propaganda. It doesn't matter it will be belated. It doesn't matter. It will be a... Better late than never. But this propaganda should be done. [break] Now, now, better purchase hundred chairs. So around the temple room place hundred chairs so that many people can stand. They will sit comfortable without, with the, with their shoes. So make some attraction, people may come. And whoever comes, give them prasadam. Whatever you can. "Please take prasadam." Give him plate. Make this way.

Guest: What I was saying apart from all that... In my personal capacity, not as a lawyer, as a life member,... But as a life member, I can help on the police commissioner also.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: In writing, I can help on the police commissioner.

Prabhupada: Yes, let him come.

Guest: Whatever I have written it, giving my personal shape, I can write him and I can discuss the problem with him as a life member of our (indistinct).

Prabhupada: No, not as our lawyer.

Guest: That... No, I say...

Prabhupada: On your personal capacity. Yes.

Guest: I say...

Prabhupada: Yes, as a public man, as a person, you can do that.

Guest: "As a life member, I am suffering because of this reason that there is no construction of a temple, therefore I cannot develop spiritually."

Prabhupada: No, you can go to other temples.

Guest: No, if I have got attraction for a particular temple, why I should be denied.

Prabhupada: Then you are spiritually not improving.

Guest: I beg your pardon?

Prabhupada: Then you are not spiritually improving.

Guest: No, but that is how they will give me reply, and I can tell them.

Prabhupada: That is not very strong reason.

Guest: No, but what I say, they may be a strong, but I say I am stronger than them.

Prabhupada: No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the...

Guest: No, no. I...

Prabhupada: ...that your idea means our idea, carried.

Guest: Not necessarily. [break]

Prabhupada: Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion.

Guest: Certainly, it's my honest opinion.

Prabhupada: But the thing is I want to do something solid.

Guest: No, but what I say is my...

Prabhupada: Even if you write, they'll not take care very much.

Guest: No, but, uh, I am hopeful.

Prabhupada: You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that...

Guest: Unless they have got some...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: From Delhi.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: Unless there is an adverse report from Delhi.

Yasomatinandana: Delhi.

Guest: You see if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans...

Prabhupada: No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs.

Guest: But if they will logically...

Prabhupada: Logic, there is no logic.

Guest: No, but what I say. If they are appeased...

Prabhupada: Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword.

Guest: No, but what I say... The basic problem is that if the center is against, if the (indistinct) man, is against...

Prabhupada: That I know that they are against.

Guest: If the (indistinct) men is against, therefore they are disclosing their weakness.

Prabhupada: And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that... Many politicians have said. In London, the high commissioner, he said, "Swamiji, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharastrian Pant. Pant. So... But we cannot do anything of this way.

Guest: No, but if the center is against, then my logic says...

Prabhupada: Center is against.

Guest: If the center is against, then how they have given a permission Delhi?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: Then how we have got a permission in Delhi?

Prabhupada: What is that permission?

Guest: Temple permission building.

Yasomatinandana: We don't have... We haven't built a temple in Delhi.

Guest: We don't have a temple in Delhi.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Guest: Then what about the permission in the Mayapura?

Prabhupada: Mayapura, that doesn't require any permission.

Guest: What?

Prabhupada: That doesn't require any permission. That is in the village.

Guest: And what about this Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: That also, they gave permission with great difficulty.

Guest: Hyderabad?

Prabhupada: Hyderabad, I do not know.

Yasomatinandana: Hyderabad is easier because the people are very much in favor.

Prabhupada: Yes. And Vrndavana they gave it very late. After one year. Vrndavana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vrndavana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city... Formerly, it was planned that "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city?

Yasomatinandana: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So nasty that nobody will go there.

Guest: But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena?

Prabhupada: That is very good.

Guest: Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner from breaking the temple.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: Breaking the temple.

Prabhupada: But one thing is... My fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go."

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacari dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why, why... They will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals swamis have told them, "Yes..."

Guest: But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest: As you rightly say, that if we do anything, actively, then they may send your boys going out of India, foreigners. Americans.

Yasomatinandana: They will kick us.

Guest: "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground and they will say that "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons.

Prabhupada: Any, no reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you."

Guest: Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, try to get another, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys.

Prabhupada: No, same action, but that is our propaganda, preach.

Guest: Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them.

Prabhupada: That we are already doing. We are holding meeting.

Yasomatinandana: We are not going to preach against them.

Guest: No, no, here...

Yasomatinandana: We will simply present our philosophy.

Guest: No, but your philosophy is only, you see, you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking signatures.

Yasomatinandana: Oh yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say...

Guest: Even though you never say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals.

Yasomatinandana: So they...

Guest: Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India."

Yasomatinandana: But here is agitation. We are...

Guest: (indistinct) ...propaganda of collecting the signatures... [break]

Yasomatinandana: So I was also thinking, Prabhupada, that we can still approach the higher level with...

Prabhupada: Who is arranging for this higher level? Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? But you do not know. This, you should never close this... (end)