August, 1973
Room Conversation

London, August 24, 1973
730824RC.LON
Prabhupāda: ...there are so many paths, that Kṛṣṇa says that "Real religion is to surrender unto Me. Therefore you give up all this pseudo-religion," sarva dharman parityajya, give it up, mam ekam saranam, "just surrender unto Me, I shall give you protection from all sinful reaction." So here is God, and He is accepted by great ācāryas. In India there were great ācāryas, religious leaders. Just like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbarka, later Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and many others. They accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is God, His name, His address, His activities, everything is there. If you accept, then you will benefit.
Woman: Do you think that the, the poor Indians who are suffering because of this terrible drought in India..., is it in India?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Woman: Yes. Umm, is their relief never going to be in this world? Is it only going to be when they die?
Prabhupāda: Well, nobody is dying.
Woman: Dying is parting, is the soul parting from the physical body (indistinct)....
Prabhupāda: So every, everyone everywhere is dying. Do you think in your country nobody dies? Is there any guarantee, that any, that nobody will die?
Woman: No, but everyone, everyone dies because this..., because this is the pattern and this is the cycle: you are born, you will live your life, you will die. Some people die young, some people die old.
Prabhupāda: No. India, India at the present moment, they have lost their culture. In India, five thousand years ago, when Maharaja Pariksit was there, one black man was trying to kill a cow. He immediately took his sword, the king. So "Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" The same India, the government is sanctioning ten thousand cows to be killed daily. So India is not the same India. India has lost its culture. You see? Therefore they are suffering.
Woman: But everything is changing. Not only India is changing, every country is...
Prabhupāda: So every country is suffering. Just they are suffering in one way.
Devotee (1): California is suffering...
Prabhupāda: Suffering another way. Nobody is, is free from suffering. I have already explained. There are three kinds of suffering. So who is free from this suffering? You may not be suffering from any bodily disease, but you may be suffering from mental agony. You may not be suffering from mental agony, but you may suffer, suffering imposed by others. There are so many suffering. This place is suffering. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This place is for suffering. Duḥkhālayam. Duhkha means suffering, alayam means place. Asasvatam. And still you cannot make adjustment. You, if you say "All right, let there be a little suffering. Let me stay here," that also will not be allowed. You will be kicked out: "Get out!" Then you have to accept another body. You do not know what kind of body. So these things are there. Don't think that a little happy life for ten years or twenty years is the solution of your problem. That is not solution. Real solution is different. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā,
Find out this verse, mām upetya tu kaunteya, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. You are reading Bhagavad-gītā, kindly read very carefully. You will get all answers.
Man: I am going to read it.
Devotee (2): I have the book, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2):
ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ
punar āvartino 'rjuna
mām upetya tu kaunteya
punar janma na vidyate
[Bg. 8.16]
"From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."
Prabhupāda: This is a, this is a fact. That, that people are going to the higher planetary system, that is already known. Not this process, but there is another process, how you can graduate there. So, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ. And even if you go to the highest planetary system, Brahmā-loka, where people live for millions and millions of years... Brahmā's one day, twelve hours, you cannot calculate. It is so big number of years. So Kṛṣṇa says that if you do go to the Brahmā-loka, still you have to come. Simply your suffering will be stopped, mām upetya tu kaunteya, duḥkhālayam. What is that?
Prabhupāda: Then mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, where is that?
Devotee (2): Oh,
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning?
Devotee (2): "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."
Prabhupāda: This is the highest perfection. We have to go to Kṛṣṇa.
Woman: So when you have had your suffering in various forms and through various lives, you then reach the...
Prabhupāda: No, not that.
Woman: Not that. Not...
Prabhupāda: Not that.
Woman: Not that.
Prabhupāda: You have to prepare yourself to go there. Not that because you have suffered so much, automatically you will go there.
Woman: Not that. Not that.
Prabhupāda: No, not like that. Unless you endeavor for going to Kṛṣṇa, there is no possibility. That is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Human life is meant for trying for that thing which he has not achieved by wandering up and down. So a living entity is wandering up and down, sometimes in the higher planetary system and lower planetary system, sometimes this, sometimes rich, sometimes poor, sometimes this, sometimes a cat, sometimes dog, sometimes demigod. In this way he is suffering. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. You understand Bengali?
In this way...
Man: (indistinct), is it?
Prabhupāda: ...in this way a living entity is wandering, but by fortune, if he gets in touch, guru-kṛṣṇa, a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, a guru, by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart, then he gets the seed of devotional service. And if he cultivates that devotional service, then he goes. This is the process. Not that because one has suffered so much, therefore automatically.
Woman: No, no.
Prabhupāda: No, not that.
Man: Swamiji, my wife is tired, I think. She's had a long day today. May I have your permission...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Man: ...to take her home?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Man: Thank you very much. It's been a great joy for me and for my wife to be with you.
Prabhupāda: (softly to devotee) Give them this flower. One. Yes. No.
Devotee: One?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Take another. (to guests) Your full name?
Devotee: Your full name.
Woman: Your full name. Ruby and James (indistinct).
Man: Ruby and James (indistinct). You have my name, full name.
Devotee: Yes.
Woman: How did you find out his name?
Devotee: I was recommended, in fact.
Woman: By who?
Devotee: Oh, the person asked me not to say.
Woman: Oh I see.
Man: Who?
Woman: The person asked not to say.
Man: Ahh. Thank you.
Devotee: You may take these also.
Man: For me?
Devotee: Yes.
Man: Thank you very much. We will, we will read this with great joy at home. Thank you, Swamiji.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end)
730809cc.par
Car Conversation
after meeting with Cardinal Danielou

August 9, 1973, Paris
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: Excuse me?
Prabhupāda: That the animal-eater is going to become a tiger to get more facility.
Yogeśvara: He liked the example.
Prabhupāda: Well, that is fact. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram... [Bg. 8.6]. Animal-eaters, they'll become tiger, fox, cats, dogs. This is, they'll become. What are these different species of life?
Yogeśvara: They do not, they do not accept that the soul exists below the human level.
Prabhupāda: And that is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. Why does not exist? What is the proof of existence of the soul in the body? What is the proof? First of all, you have to understand that. Suppose I am a human being, so...
Yogeśvara: (to driver) You know where to go?
Prabhupāda: I am a human being. You accept that I have got soul. By what symptoms you accept that I have got soul? First of all you have to ascertain that. What is the symptom that we agree that I am human being. I have got, I am a soul. By what characteristic, analytical study, you accept that I have got soul, and the dog has not got soul? What are the different characteristics? First of all, we have to enumerate that thing. If we find in the characteristics, then we can say there is no soul. But if we see that both the animal and the human being have the same characteristics of living condition, then how you can say the animal has not soul?
Yogeśvara: His point was that the animals don't show the same symptoms. They don't think as...
Prabhupāda: Why not, why not? The general symptom is animal eats, you eat, animal sleeps, you sleep, animal has sex, you have got sex, animal also defends, you also defend. Where is the difference?
Yogeśvara: His point was that human beings, they think on higher platforms than animals do.
Prabhupāda: What that higher platform? Eating, you require to maintain the body. I eat something, you eat another. That does not mean higher or lower. You eat, I also eat. That's all. You eat according to your taste. I eat according to my taste. So the eating is the real symptom, not the varieties of eating. By varieties of eating, suppose I... A animal, the cow is eating grass, and you are eating the same animal by keeping a huge slaughterhouse with machines and... Does it mean that you have improved your eating process? Simply by having big, big machine and ghastly scenes. And the animal eats simple grass. Does it mean that you are advanced than the animals? There is no logic. Eating is eating. One man's food, another man's poison. That is another thing. But eating is there. Somebody eats poison. Somebody eats ordinary thing. But eating is there. So nobody can avoid eating. That is the main symptom. Even in human society, there are different varieties of food. We Indians, we like a different type of dish. European, Americans, they like a di... But eating is there. Either American, Indian or cats, dogs, eating must be there. That is real symptom. After eating, you must sleep. That is essential. So where is the difference of real character, characteristic between the animals and the human beings?
Yogeśvara: Then his point was that we find God's creatures, many of them, not just human beings, but it's a symptom of life everywhere that meat-eating is allowed. There are many creations, he said, many species...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Eating, that is another thing. First of all, if the, point is that you say that the animals have no soul. So what is the special point that you are speaking of the animals having no soul? You eat meat, or I eat rice, that doesn't matter, but eating is there. That is the common thing. You cannot say the animal does not eat or man does not eat. Only animal eats. No. Everyone eats. First of all, you enunciate: how do you say that the human being has got soul and the animal has not soul? What are the special symptoms?
Yogeśvara: His, his point was that only in humans do we find a metaphysical search for the meaning of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: And that's the only difference.
Prabhupāda: The metaphysical search... Now metaphysically search out why do you deny soul in the human being, uh, in the animals? That is metaphysical. It is metaphysical question. What is your metaphysical study about the living, uh, animals that you say there is no soul? Come to the metaphysical then. You are thinking metaphysically. That's all right. But if you are still thinking like animal, then what is the use of your metaphysical studies? If you are thinking like the animals: "Where shall I get my food? Where shall I take shelter? Where shall I have sexual facility? How shall I defend?" If you are thinking like that, this is animal thinking. Metaphysical thinking means beyond this, beyond this thinking of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is metaphysical thinking. So what you are thinking beyond that? That is God consciousness. When a human being thinks about God, that is metaphysical. When he thinks like animals about eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is not metaphysical. Metaphysical. What do you mean by metaphysical? How to define? What is the meaning of "meta"? Above physical. That means spiritual. So if you think spiritually, then you'll see. Just like Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa claims: sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. "In all forms of life, the living entities are there, and they are My sons." So this is metaphysical, or if some third-class man says that there is no soul in the animal, that is metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? Kṛṣṇa speaking will be metaphysical, or a third-class fool's statement will be taken as metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? First of all say me.
Yogeśvara: Then he made the point that in a place like India it's foolish where so many people are dying of starvation, not to kill the cow on some religious principle.
Prabhupāda: That is another story. No Indians are dying, not by eating cow's flesh. That, that is the theory at the present moment given. But there are so many vegetarians in India. They do not touch even fish, or eggs, or animal flesh. They're quite healthy. It does not mean...
Yogeśvara: I think his answer would be that vegetarianism is reserved to the rich people who can afford it. That if you're poor, you have to eat whatever you can get.
Prabhupāda: Well. Now in India, meat is selling at high price than vegetable. Yes.
Yogeśvara: He said now in India meat is selling at a higher price than vegetables.
Prabhupāda: That is no logic.
Yogeśvara: Not logic.
Prabhupāda: Price of meat is higher than milk and vegetables. So in that consideration, why not take vegetable and milk. Why you go to meat? So she is driving taxi, girls also drive taxi?
Yogeśvara: Oh, yes.
Satsvarūpa: In New York City, they also drive taxi.
Prabhupāda: Girls?
Satsvarūpa: Yes. They get more business. (end)
730809r2.par
Room Conversation
with Cardinal Danielou

August 9, 1973, Paris
Prabhupāda: ...this is the third time.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: I have come here today. (heavy static) [break]
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes sir.
Prabhupāda: You know Vṛndāvana?
Cardinal Danielou: In the north, north India.
Prabhupāda: North India.
Cardinal Danielou: North India, North India. You have here the center of your...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got my center here.
Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the address, our center?
Yogeśvara: It's 4, Rue le Seuer. (French)
Cardinal Danielou: (French) You have the temple of Kṛṣṇa?
Cardinal Danielou: You have a community in Paris?
Prabhupāda: We shall install Deity tomorrow morning. So...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, you...
Prabhupāda: Have you got time to attend?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: Ah... I don't know. Perhaps. What, what, what, at quel heur, what time?
Yogeśvara: Nine o'clock.
Cardinal Danielou: Nine o'clock, nine o' clock. Nine o'clock is perhaps difficult.
Prabhupāda: Nine...
Cardinal Danielou: Nine, it is...
Prabhupāda: Nine to twelve, the ceremony...
Cardinal Danielou: Ah, nine to twelve. Perhaps. In the end of the morning, perhaps it is... It is an inauguration, inauguration?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Deity installation.
Bhagavān: We have a beautiful form of Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa...
Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct) of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, yes.
Bhagavān: Installed in our temple.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, this is very, very, very beautiful. Yes, I would be very glad to visit you. You was in the Hotel De Ville of Paris this afternoon?
Yogeśvara: Yes, we just came from the Hotel De Ville.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes. A very nice reception, the Hotel De Ville.
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda spoke on our philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā.
Cardinal Danielou: Oh, Bhagavad-gītā, yes, yes, yes...
Bhagavān: People were very interested. Our spiritual concept of soul, he spoke on.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. It is a... Personally I like very much Hinduism. And I have a brother, (indistinct), it is my brother, who is a specialist on Hinduism...
Bhagavān: Yes, his brother has written a very great book which is known all over France...
Cardinal Danielou: Especially on Indian music, Indian music. He live many years in Benares.
Prabhupāda: Benares.
Cardinal Danielou: Benares. Fifteen years. Fifteen years in Benares.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he was in fifteen years?
Cardinal Danielou: Oh, yes, a very long time. Oh yes. Very long time. Yes. And after he, he worked in Pondicherry and each year he comes in India. Yes. Yes. He's very well known in India for his works, especially about Indian music, but also Indian spirituality, the yogas, Indian gods and all question concerning India. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Where he is now?
Cardinal Danielou: He's now in Rome, in Rome, in Rome. He, he had especially in Greece language not in French. He lived in Rome, in Berlin. You visited Italy, Italy yourself?
Prabhupāda: Not yet.
Cardinal Danielou: No. Not yet, not yet. France. France...
Prabhupāda: I've got invitation from the secretary...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Bhagavān: We are beginning one branch in Italy.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Bhagavān: Your brother, he has acquired a little philosophy from India.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, very acquainted with Indian philosophy and religion. He read very well Sanskrit and...
Prabhupāda: Oh, he knows Sanskrit?
Cardinal Danielou: Oh, yes, oh yes. He knows very, very well, oh, very well. He speaks Indian modern language, Hindi, Bengali, and Tamil.
Prabhupāda: Bengali?
Cardinal Danielou: Tamil.
Prabhupāda: I am Bengali.
Cardinal Danielou: It is...
Prabhupāda: He's a linguist scholar.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, very scholar. It is first time you visit France?
Prabhupāda: This is the third time.
Bhagavān: Third time, trois.
Cardinal Danielou: Trois fois, trois fois, trois fois.
Yogeśvara: Our spiritual master was very interested when I informed him that you have had several meetings with political leaders of France as well, that you have, that your interests extend into government and politics as well as religion.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So our Vedic conception of politics. The king is the representative of God.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: King.
Cardinal Danielou: King, yes.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā... (Aside) Bring glass of water.
Bhagavān: We can get glass of water?
Frenchman: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: Glass...
Bhagavān: Do you understand English enough to...?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, I understand, very well I understand some...
Prabhupāda: The king, this creation, God created this material world. What is the purpose? What is the purpose of creation? There must be some plan. When you manufacture something, do something, there must be plan. So what is the plan behind this cosmic manifestation?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. What is this plant like? Yes. Yes sir. Yes.
Prabhupāda: What Christianity says about this plan?
Cardinal Danielou: Christianity thinks that creation is the work of the love of God, and the signification of creation is that God wants to partake His richness, His joy, His beauty with free spirit and the goal of the creation is essentially the realization of this communion with God, the communion with God. Alors, the visible world is without great importance. It is an appearance. But there is a reality in human person, in human personality, because human personality is, has a...
Yogeśvara: If you like I can translate. (Paraphrase)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui. You understand, you understand what I say? Or not very well? (French)
Prabhupāda: So the creation... We are, we all living entities, we are also part and parcel of God.
Yogeśvara: (Translation)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui.
Prabhupāda: Just like this finger...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, is a...
Prabhupāda: Part and parcel of this body. Similarly everything...
Cardinal Danielou: Is a part.
Prabhupāda: Part and parcel of God.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the part and parcel of the God, the living entity, it's business is to render service to God.
Cardinal Danielou: To...?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes. I agree, I agree.
Prabhupāda: Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, but its business is to serve the body. I ask the finger: "Come here." It is doing like that. I ask the finger to: "Come here." It is doing like that. So it is the business of the finger is to serve the whole. It is part. And the body is the whole. Therefore the business of the part and parcel is to serve, render service to the whole. This is natural condition.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: I agree with this...
Prabhupāda: Let me finish.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. And I think that the vocation of each creature is the service of God, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: The service of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So when the living entity forgets this business, that is material life.
Cardinal Danielou: That is...?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (agrees in French)
Prabhupāda: Therefore in this material world we find almost everyone has forgotten God.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (agrees in French)
Prabhupāda: The conclusion is that this material world is created...
Cardinal Danielou: Created...
Prabhupāda: Created for the forgotten souls.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And here the business is to again revive them to God consciousness.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the process of enlightening the living entities, especially the human being, because in the animal form of life, one cannot be enlightened. Neither the animal can understand what is God.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: It is only the human being who can understand. If he's trained, then he can come to God consciousness.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, yes, It is so.
Prabhupāda: So this creation is meant for the forgotten souls to give them a chance for reviving their God consciousness.
Yogeśvara: Is it clear?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, it is clear. It is very, very clear. Very clear.
Prabhupāda: And for this business, sometimes God personally comes. Sometimes He sends His representative, His son, or His devotee, His servant. This is going on. God wants that these forgotten souls should come back to home, back to Godhead.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore from His side, that is constant endeavor to revive their God consciousness.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Now this God consciousness can be awakened in the human form of life, not in other form of life.
Cardinal Danielou: Not in the...
Prabhupāda: Maybe very rarely, but the human being... (aside:) Where is the water?
Yogeśvara: She said she was coming with it...
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. The human being has got the prerogative to awaken his dormant God consciousness.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the best service to humanity is to awaken their God consciousness.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, it is true, it is true.
Prabhupāda: Best service.
Cardinal Danielou: It is the necessity of internal conversion, yes, for human, human souls to return to God. But do you think that this, the personality of human soul is a personality permanent? That is, we remain always distinct, not separate from God, but distinct of God?
Prabhupāda: Distinct.
Cardinal Danielou: Distinct of God. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like you are distinct from me, I am distinct from you.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Like that.
Cardinal Danielou: We are distinct from God in a certain sense.
Prabhupāda: But as I am the individual being, similarly God is also individual being.
Cardinal Danielou: Individual being, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Being. That is the Vedic statement, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is also a living entity.
Cardinal Danielou: Living, God is living.
Prabhupāda: Living entity.
Cardinal Danielou: Living, living.
Prabhupāda: And we are also living entities. But He's singular number, we are plural number.
Yogeśvara: Il est unique, nous sont nombre.
Cardinal Danielou: But do you think that really God love human beings and...?
Prabhupāda: God loves...
Cardinal Danielou: Love...
Prabhupāda: ...every living entity.
Cardinal Danielou: God love, love, love...
Prabhupāda: Not only human beings, but also...
Cardinal Danielou: And you think that the origin of creation is, comment dit pecher?
Yogeśvara: Do you believe that the origin of this creation is a sin?
Cardinal Danielou: Is a sin, a sin...
Yogeśvara: A sin.
Cardinal Danielou: A sin of man or is the love of God? What is the origin?
Yogeśvara: Is this creation...?
Prabhupāda: When, when the living entity forgets love of God, he's given this material world.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes yes, I agree. Christianity agrees with this.
Prabhupāda: The exact word, in Bengali, there is a poet,
kṛṣṇa-bhuliyā-jīva bhoga vāñchā kare
pāśate māyāra tare jāpaṭiyā dhare
As soon as the living entity forgets his position as eternal servant of God, and he wants to imitate God to enjoy, at that time, māyā, illusion, or Satan captures him, captures him.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Is true. The man must imitate God, imitating His bounty, His...
Prabhupāda: Power.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. His mind and His knowledge of the spiritual sense. But it is possible to man without the helping of God to realize his perfection?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Cardinal Danielou: It is necessary that the grace of God help the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. By the help of God, he can revive. That is stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta...
Cardinal Danielou: Because man is, himself, is not capable to attain...
Prabhupāda: No.
Cardinal Danielou: ...the divinity.
Prabhupāda: By the help of Kṛṣṇa...
Cardinal Danielou: (aside in French)
Prabhupāda: By the help of God, and by the help of master, spiritual master...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. Spiritual master.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: Spiritual master is very important. The guru, you say, yes.
Prabhupāda: Guru, yes. That is the very word used. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. One revives his God consciousness by the mercy of God and guru.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, in Christianity, we speak of spiritual fathers.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: Spiritual father, spiritual father. We... He is a man who has a good experience of spiritual things and communicate his experience to others.
Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. (etc.)
Cardinal Danielou: You know. We are in Christianity monks, monks. We live in monastery.
Prabhupāda: Ah, monks.
Cardinal Danielou: Monastery, yes. With contemplative life and austerity of life. And we have many, many monastery in France. Some Benedict, some Benedict and...
Prabhupāda: Where he has gone to take the water from, Arabian Sea?
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa's mercy. I can change the tape. [break]
Cardinal Danielou: ...leader of the Kṛṣṇa community?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. But there are in India other community of Viṣṇu...?
Prabhupāda: The same, the same.
Cardinal Danielou: The same.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu, the same.
Cardinal Danielou: The same.
Yogeśvara: Here's some water.
Cardinal Danielou: Water.
Yogeśvara: That's O.K. Would you like some water yourself?
Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So material world is meant for persons...
Cardinal Danielou: Thanks.
Prabhupāda: You can give me little more. Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: You are in India today a religious life, or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'm sannyāsī.
Cardinal Danielou: But there is no, no atheism, literate, some atheism, atheism, atheism, religious indifference, materialists exist in the towns, in the towns...?
Prabhupāda: Now there are many atheists.
Cardinal Danielou: Many atheists, yes. In France, we have this problem. In France, the greatest parts of the, of, of children are baptized and trained...
Prabhupāda: Give me little more.
Cardinal Danielou: In France, the greatest part of children are baptized and receive a religious education, the religious training, the great part. The atheism is chiefly, amongst intellectuals. Not...
Prabhupāda: Ah! Not in the mass.
Cardinal Danielou: Not in the... No, not in the mass.
Prabhupāda: The same thing....
Cardinal Danielou: The intellectuals are always a little extravagant. And the mass, the mass, remain religious. Yes, yes. Very religious, very religious.
Yogeśvara: But still we find that the French young people today are at the head of all the revolutionary philosophies and movements.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes. But it is not the majority of the young men and this revolutionary spirit is amongst many youths, some research, research of the Absolute. Some young men are communist and Marxist, surely. But many youths, today have a spirit of research factually. In, insatisfied with actual religious forms, but receives any religious experience, a spiritual experience...
Prabhupāda: That is the latest thing. They are now disgusted with these religious rituals without philosophy.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, it is so, it is so. They have accepted some formalism, ritualism. They do not like this. But receives a personal and internal experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: But you have a great interest in France amongst (about) the yoga, monk, Indian method of prayer, a great interest. And we, we think that the method of prayer are the same in the various religions. We have in Christian faith method of meditation of interior, interiorite, of silence.
Bhagavān: What is the, what is the program that Christianity has for giving people in general this experience that they're missing?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Bien. Cest, nous avons... We have today many community of prayers where young men go together and in the monastery or in the... N'est ce pas? And pray together with alternative of silence and of lectures, of some text of the Bible and of the gospel, you know. Because we, we think that the life of Jesus is the model or the shape, and we like that Jesus is the manifestation of God. He is the way, the way. Because it is necessary to find God, who is hidden, to have a way, to have a way. And for ourself, Jesus is the way to go to the hidden God. You know, you know. The imitation of Jesus is, for a Christian, the ideal, imitation of his poverty, of his goodness, of his love of God.
Yogeśvara: He says the ideal of Christianity is to imitate these various qualities of Lord Jesus Christ.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. I think it is the character specific of Christianity, the importance of the person of Jesus. Jesus is the perfect model, you know, of the virtues, and it is apply the model on the savior because we think that Jesus is not purely man. He is a manifestation of God. God is gone amongst us to help the man to find Him. We know that the man research God, but his capacity of find, and is necessary that God come to help the man to find Him.
Bhagavān: We call that guru.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. And Jesus, Jesus is this. So I am very, very glad to meet you...
Prabhupāda: May, may I ask you one question? Jesus says: "Thou shalt not kill." So why Christian people are killing?
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogeśvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: It is forbidden in Christianity to kill. Surely. But chiefly we think that there is a difference between the life of man and the life the beasts. N'est ce pas? And that the life of man is sacred because man is the image of God. But we have not the same respect relating to the beasts, to the animals, and we think that the animals are at the service of man, and that it is legitime to man. For us, each life is not the same. What is really important is the life of man, and the human person is really sacred and it is forbidden to kill a human person...
Prabhupāda: No, but Jesus does not says "human being". He just said generally: "Thou shalt not kill."
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (French) In the Bible we have many example of, by example, we have many sacrifice in the sacrifice of animals. You know. Many sacrifice of animals in the Bible. Alors. This is not forbidden. It is sure that it is a great sin to kill a man, alors. There is surely the great question of the war, the war, the national war. And is, it is...
Prabhupāda: You, you, you think that to kill an animal is no sin?
Cardinal Danielou: No, no, no. No sin. No sin. No sin. Because we think that the simple biologic life is not sacred. That is, what is sacred is the human life, the human life. But not the life, ass.
Prabhupāda: But I think that it is interpretation. Jesus Christ says generally: "Thou shalt not kill."
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Jesus said, but this phrase is not, the text is not a text of Jesus. It is a text of the Old Testament, and it is a text...
Prabhupāda: No, it is New Testament also.
Cardinal Danielou: Old Testament! Old Testament.
Prabhupāda: No, is it not in the New Testament?
Cardinal Danielou: It is in the Levitic, in the Levitic, in the book of the Levitic.
Prabhupāda: Ahhh.
Cardinal Danielou: It is not a word of Jesus. It is a word of the Levitic, and it is a part of the decalogue of the Ten Commandments what God gave to Moses.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But Ten Commandments, one of the Commandments is that: "Thou shalt no kill."
Yogeśvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: (French) Mais, it is surely, I think, it is surely the killing of the man. I think, I have a great difficulty to understand why in Indian religion... Because it is impossible... By example, it is necessary, pour la nourriture?
Yogeśvara: For food.
Cardinal Danielou: Oui. For the food of man to eat, to eat, and...
Prabhupāda: Man can eat grains, food grains, fruits, milk, sugar, wheat...
Cardinal Danielou: Not, not, (French)?
Yogeśvara: No flesh?
Cardinal Danielou: No flesh?
Prabhupāda: No. Why? Just like the fruits. The fruits are meant for human being. The tiger does not come to eat your fruits. So tiger's food is another animal. Man's food is fruit, food grains, milk products. Just like fruit...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. I understand. It is why because grain and plants are also living beings.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, that's all right.
Cardinal Danielou: Living beings.
Prabhupāda: That, that we also understand. But if, if you cannot live... Just like, generally, if I can live on fruits and grains and milk, why should I kill another animal?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes...
Prabhupāda: Another thing is that how can you support that animal killing is not sin?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Bhagavān: How do you justify it?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, because we, we thought that there is a difference of nature between life of man, life of spirit, and biological, biological life. And we say... [break] ...not really exists, and we think so. We think that animals, plant are not real beings, are world of appearance and that you human person only is real being. And that in this sense, the material world is without importance.
Prabhupāda: Now..., I follow. Suppose you are living in this house. So you are not this house, that's a fact.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: But if I come and break your house, is it not inconvenience for you?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely. Surely it is inconvenient.
Prabhupāda: So if I cause inconvenience unto you, is it not criminal?
Cardinal Danielou: It is inconvenient to me, but is...
Prabhupāda: No. If I cause some inconvenience to you, is it not criminal? Is it not sinful?
Cardinal Danielou: I think if there is a serious reason, it is not the destruction of the spiritual man itself. By example, it is perfectly possible to use of the reality of the material world, of the natural world to the valuable finality of human vocation. We think that the question is a question of motivation. It could exist bad reason to kill an animal. But if the killing of animal is to give food to children, men, women, we ont faim. Qui...?
Devotee: Hungry.
Cardinal Danielou: Hungry, we are hungry, it is legitimate, legitimate... We have... It is difficult to admit that in India, comment dit-on les vaches?
Yogeśvara: The cows.
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the cows.
Prabhupāda: One thing is...
Danielou: It is not permitted to kill a...?
Cardinal Danielou: ...a cow to give him to children who are hungry and the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, from any other consideration, cows' milk we drink. Therefore she's mother. Is it not?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui.
Yogeśvara: N'est ce pas?
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, yes, surely, surely, but the...
Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conversion, we have got seven mothers. Ātma-mātā, the original mother, guroḥ patnī, wife of the master, spiritual master...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Bhagavān: Can you understand?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī, the wife of the priest.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou:
Prabhupāda: Rāja-patnikā, the wife of king, the queen.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: Four. Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī rāja-patnikā, dhenur. Dhenu means cow. Dhenur dhātrī. Dhātrī means nurse. Tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī means earth. These are seven mothers. So cow is mother because we drink milk, cow's milk.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How can I deny that she's not mother? So how we can support killing of mother?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, it is a motive. But we think that...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, those who are meat-eaters, they are advised... That is also under restriction. Advised to kill some lower animals like goats, even up to buffaloes. But cow killing is the greatest sin.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, we... I know this. I know this. And this is for us a difficulty, a difficulty...
Prabhupāda: Yes, because the cow is mother.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes...
Prabhupāda: You, you take the milk from the mother...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: And when she's old, she cannot give you milk, therefore she should be killed?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Is that very good proposal?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, oui.
Yogeśvara: He says yes, it is.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: He says: "Yes, it is a good proposition."
Cardinal Danielou: If, if the men are hungry, it is the life of men is more important than the life of cow.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, because we are propagating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we ask people to, not to eat meat, any kind.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: But if, under certain circumstances, you are obliged to eat meat, eat the flesh of some lower animals. Don't kill cows. It is the greatest sin. And so long one will be sinful, he'll not be able to understand what is God. But human being, main business is to understand God and to love Him. But if he remains sinful, neither he can understand God, and what to, what is the question of loving Him. Therefore at least from the human society, this cruel maintenance of slaughterhouses must be stopped.
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. I think that this is perhaps not an essential point. I think that in this realm the uses of various religions can be good. The importance is to love God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: But the commandment practical can be various.
Prabhupāda: No. Just like God, if God says that: "You can do this," that is not sin. But if God says that: "You cannot do it", then it is sin.
Cardinal Danielou: When God says that it is not good to Indian, and says to the Jews that it is...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Now take... Therefore I say that Jesus Christ, either you call him God, or confidential representative of God, both of them are one, when he says: "Thou shalt not kill," why should we interpret in an another way, to our convenience?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, but Jesus eated (French, refers to passover lamb)
Yogeśvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: Mutton, mutton.
Yogeśvara: Oh, the sheep.
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the sheeps...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but Jesus Christ never maintained slaughterhouse.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Non, mais... He eated, he eated, he eated...
Prabhupāda: In certain circumstances, when there is no other food, that a life must be saved. That is another thing. But why regularly slaughterhouse should be maintained for the satisfaction of the tongue?
Yogeśvara: Is it clear? (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui. But I think there is, at first, a great duty to help men and women and children to live and actually it is the first duty. It is more important to help men and women to life. The life of beast is of minor importance than the life of men.
Prabhupāda: From that point of view, you can kill lower animals. Why should you kill mother?
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. Mother. Man, as human being is not the same that...
Prabhupāda: And it is not moral. Even if you kill animals for maintaining your..., allowing that, there are many other, hundreds and thousands of animals. So if you at all require, people eat also hogs, sometimes, in wartime, they ate dogs also. And there are persons, they regularly eat dogs in Korea. They eat dogs regularly. So even animal killing is necessary for...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, it is...
Prabhupāda: ...for eating, then at least the mother animal should not be killed. That is from moral point of view.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, from moral point of view...
Prabhupāda: So our point of view is that we don't allow killing any animal. Our Kṛṣṇa says: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Kṛṣṇa says vegetable, fruits, milk, grains, all these things should be offered to Me with devotion. And you should take the remnants of the foodstuff. So we take prasādam. And Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me foodstuff prepared from this group." That we do. Accepting that the fruits, they have got life. But fruits are by nature... There are many fruits. It is offered by the tree for eating. The tree's not killed. So we accept this philosophy also that a, one animal, one living entity is meant for being food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. That we also accept, but that does not mean one living entity is the food for another living entity, that does not mean I can kill my mother, my child... That is not, sir. So at least this must be taken into consideration that cows, innocent, they give us milk, we take its milk, and we kill in regular slaughterhouse, this is not very good thing. It is sinful.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. I understand that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much.
Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct)
Yogeśvara: Does the fact that Christianity, does the fact that Christianity sanctions eating of meat mean that from the Christian viewpoint, lower species of life do not have a soul like human beings.
Cardinal Danielou: Dites en francais.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogeśvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui.
Yogeśvara: He says: "No, that yes, this is the philosophy, that, that below the human level, the soul does not inhabit the body of other species."
Cardinal Danielou: The soul, the soul, the soul is, is human soul. In the animal you have some psychologic existence, but not life of spirit with freedom, with mind and with the reality of spirit. But you have the same idea because you said that there is a difference of nature between spiritual creation and the material world. You know, the material world is not of the same essence than the spiritual world. And the man, the man is a part of spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: No. Our Bhagavad-gītā says: sarva-yoniṣu. "In all species of life, as many forms are there, so the spirit soul is there." This outward body is just like a dress. You may have a very costly dress, and I may have a very shabby, poor dress, but both of us are human being, or living entities. Similarly these different forms of living entities, they are just like different types of dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like you are in black dress. I am in saffron dress...
Cardinal Danielou: Yellow, yes.
Prabhupāda: So this is external. But within the dress you are a human being, I am also human being. Similarly, there are eight million four hundred thousands of dresses. There are nine hundred thousand dresses within the water, aquatics.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: Similarly, two million kinds of dresses of the trees, plants, like that. In this way the Vedic literatures have calculated, there are eight million, four hundred thousand forms of living entity. But they're all living entities, part and parcel of God. Just like one man has got ten sons. Not all of them equally meritorious. Not all. One may be high-court judge. And one may be ordinary clerk in the office. But father, both the high-court judge and the clerk in the office, father claims both of them as son.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, I agree.
Prabhupāda: For father, there is no such distinction that: "This high-court judge is very important and the clerk in the office, my son, he's not important." So if the enlightened son, high-court judge, says to the father: "My dear father, your, this son, is useless. Let me cut him and eat." Will the father allow?
Yogeśvara: (asks in French if this is clear)
Cardinal Danielou: Non.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: Apart from this consideration, at least this morality should be observed that cows, they're our mother. We should not kill at least mothers for eating the flesh.
Cardinal Danielou: The difficulty for us is not the idea that it is good for us to respect the life of a cow. The difficulty is the metaphysic reason. You know.
Prabhupāda: No, metaphysics, not...
Cardinal Danielou: It is, it is, it is the idea that all life is parcel of the life of God. You know of this is to us, difficult to admit. We can, there is a very great difference between the life of man who is really called to partake the life of God, and the animal life, who is (French)
Yogeśvara: Temporary.
Cardinal Danielou: No. Without, without, impermanent. Life of man is permanent.
Prabhupāda: That, that, that difference is due to development of consciousness. The human body, human body, you get developed consciousness. Just like this tree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is not yet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But it resists in a very small degree. That is proved by the scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine: when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in the machine.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: And for the animals we can see, when one kills the animals, it resists, it cries, it makes great sound, horrible. So it is the question of development of consciousness. But the, a soul is there.
Cardinal Danielou: But, why, why, why God make some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation because... It is a fault in the creation?
Prabhupāda: No. The God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He'll give facility, good facility. Just like tiger. You become tiger, and eat animals. Those who are animal eaters, unrestrictedly, God will give him the body of a tiger next life so that he can very freely eat. "Why you maintain slaughterhouse? I give you nails and jaws. Just eat." So they are waiting that life.
Yogeśvara: Is it clear?
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Well, (French). I am very joyful to, to speak, to speak with you. And I offer, if I can, tomorrow go to the, to visit the Temple. Yes, yes. I hope I can tomorrow.
Yogeśvara: (French) (end)
730809rc.par
Room Conversation
with German and Haṁsadūta dāsa

August 9, 1973, Paris
Haṁsadūta: Īśopaniṣad.
Guest (German Man): (German)
Haṁsadūta: (German) Beyond... Easy Journey to Other planets.
Guest: (German)
Haṁsadūta: Topmost Yoga.
Guest: That is the... Yeah, the source of the Absolute. That is the best. But I read it twenty times, always with, in every day I find new things.
Prabhupāda: That is...
Guest: When I read other book, I read it one times, even not one time. But these books, I must read twenty times, and more even. It is, sometimes, it is, if I never read this book, it is so astonishing...
Prabhupāda: Get new light.
Guest: I would say another thing what I was. When I met the knowledge of Omkarananda, yes, I went back quite a long, five kilometers, a farm, I retired in a farm. And then I made this meditation. And then I read the book and I read fifty pages in five minutes without reading that. And then when that was finished, I was in other worlds. I could speak about high, other fields, which never I had seen, but when, when I came back I didn't know what it was what I saw. In other words, it was not dream. Absolutely awake. Other worlds, and then other sciences, higher, and higher and higher. I don't know what it was, but it is no of signification, I believe.
Haṁsadūta: It was not significant he says. He doesn't think, even though he experienced it, he doesn't think it's significant.
Guest: (German) I would ask if in the Christian conscience if it gives anything which resembles to this, which is of some worth. Because in your books sometimes you speak of Jesus Christ. He also said: "What have we to do? We have to love God with all our heart and to serve Him." If it gives any movement in your knowledge in Western Europe or in the world in the Christian side one can read what is what.
Haṁsadūta: He wants to know if Christian, Christian teachings also bring the same consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to become...
Guest: (German)
Prabhupāda: ...purified.
Guest: (German)
Haṁsadūta: No, no, no. He says that in the Bible it says one should not make an image of God.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Haṁsadūta: In the Christian teachings... (German)
Guest: Neither a picture of Him nor a likeness, likeness
Prabhupāda: So why they have got image of Christ?
Haṁsadūta: (German conversation)
Prabhupāda: Why, why they keep Lord Jesus Christ's picture?
Haṁsadūta: (German conversation)
Prabhupāda: No, what is the philosophy. I am asking. What is the philosophy of keeping...?
Guest: (German conversation)
Haṁsadūta: He says he doesn't know.
Guest: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Then why do you object of Kṛṣṇa's form.
Haṁsadūta: (German conversation)
Haṁsadūta: Oh, the Deities. He cannot understand the Deities, that we are worshiping the Deity.
Prabhupāda: Deity, that is image of Kṛṣṇa.
Haṁsadūta: That is (German conversation)
Prabhupāda: It is the same principle. Why they should object having Kṛṣṇa's form.
Haṁsadūta: He says, it looks to him, it appears to him like a doll.
Prabhupāda: Doll?
Haṁsadūta: Doll, the Deities.
Guest: (German)
Haṁsadūta: He says the Deities always have such big eyes. The Deities, have, They are always looking with such big eyes. He cannot understand.
Prabhupāda: Big eyes? Big eyes is very fearful to him?
Haṁsadūta: (German conversation)
Prabhupāda: These are different mentalities. It is not very scientific.
Haṁsadūta: Shall I explain to him about Deity worship?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: (German conversation for a some time) His question is: "Who has...?"
Guest: (German)
Haṁsadūta: Who has designated you as the spiritual master, because everyone is saying that: "I am the spiritual master," So how, how, how will one know who is the spiritual master?
Guest: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Maharsi...
Prabhupāda: (To Śrutakīrti) Don't make this coming and going always. There is no other way for going down?
Śrutakīrti: No, we just had to find something. We... There was something in your bathroom we needed. This thing here... But we, we won't be using this at all.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: You want to know how can you tell...
Guest: (German)
Prabhupāda: The spiritual master is the representative of God.
Haṁsadūta: (translates)
Prabhupāda: So if he speaks what God speaks, then he's spiritual master, otherwise, he's a bogus.
Haṁsadūta: (German conversation) What God has spoken in the scripture.
Guest: (German)
Prabhupāda: So Mahesh Yogi does not speak of God. Therefore he's bogus.
Guest: I understand.
Haṁsadūta: He wants to know if you, if you think that you will be able to complete all the volumes of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam which you have projected.
Prabhupāda: Why not?
Guest: Yeḥ? Good. Thank you. (German)
Haṁsadūta: He says, if you have anything, you can instruct him. Otherwise...
Prabhupāda: I will instruct you to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.
Haṁsadūta: (translates)
Guest: (German)
Haṁsadūta: How often? He wants...?
Prabhupāda: Twenty-four hours.
Haṁsadūta: (German conversation)
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare... Then everything will be revealed to you.
Haṁsadūta: (translates)
Guest: Yaḥ. Good.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.
Guest: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma... Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
730810r2.par
Room Conversation
with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker

August 10, 1973, Paris
Prabhupāda: ...there are many groups like that in America.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Like imitating Beatle groups.
Devotee: Allen Ginsberg.
Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg. Allen Ginsberg has no more popularity.
Devotee: No, not much.
Prabhupāda: He's roaming like vagabond. He came, London, to see me. That... He came, also. What is that? Bob...?
Yogeśvara: Bob Dylan?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: You mean in London, in London.
Prabhupāda: No. He came to Los Angeles.
Śrutakīrti: He was at different temples in the United States, he was travelling by car.
Devotee: And He came to see Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No, he came to our temple in Los Angeles and paid three hundred dollars to the Deity.
Devotee: Oh, that's nice.
Prabhupāda: Some jewels.
Yogeśvara: That's nice. He's the most popular young poet in the United States, Bob Dylan. All the young people have his records.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: Tonight there's a meeting scheduled at six-thirty here. There's a big professor of philosophy, it's called the Sorbonne. Have you ever heard of this school? The Sorbonne? It's the big French University. So he called, he requested if you would see him tonight. So we set appointment for six-thirty.
Prabhupāda: So Śivānanda Prabhu, you are doing well? Your wife came to see me. [break]
Yogeśvara: He's named Maurice Rougemont. Śrīla Prabhupāda, notre maitre spirituel.
Reporter: Enchantez.
Yogeśvara: Mr. Rougemont is a journalist from Combat magazine, newspaper. Combat is the newspaper of the socialists of France. Political newspaper, and Mr. Rougemont had some questions about the political and government programs of the Society.
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
Reporter: You accept to answer my questions?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Thank you very much. Well, the first point is people are used to seeing that your Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is completely out of life and doesn't take any interest into the real life, materialistic, you know. So, but I think it's a mistake perhaps. It's a mistake. And that...
Yogeśvara: (French)
Reporter: (French)
Yogeśvara: Ah, oui?
Reporter: Oui. I've heard that... It's a mistake. And your movement, your consciousness of Kṛṣṇa, engloves, takes all the direction of economics and political possibility.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Reporter: Can you speak, explain me about that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our aim is realization of God.
Reporter: Yes.
Yogeśvara: (French: Would you like a translation?)
Reporter: Oui.
Yogeśvara: (from this point Yogeśvara translates some of the dialogue)
Prabhupāda: And to get help for this realization we are concerned with everything. Naturally, politics, economics, science, art, philosophy, everything is included. And that is the perfection of all other subject matter. Everything has got an objective. So any of these departmental knowledge, namely politics, economics, art, science, philosophy, religion, art, science, philosophy, religion, everything should be aimed to achieve this end, God realization.
Reporter: But, thank you. But, uh, so, in this way, you have to, in all of the science, you mean, economic, politic, etc., you have to take position, sometimes perhaps. For instance, for going to the knowing of Kṛṣṇa in politics perhaps you will choose one system or the other. And in science, in philosophy, etc. Do you... But this, those choose have never been explained to the people, you know.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it should be.
Reporter: It should be. Have you...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we, we, we have explained it in our book, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, wherever possibility. Find out that verse: kāmam, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. Find out this verse.
Śrutakīrti: It's in First Canto?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. You can...
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Yogeśvara: (in French:) He's looking for a specific reference in that book which explains the beginning of our political program.
Śrutakīrti:
"During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."
Prabhupāda: Now here is economics, politics and everything. So by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we want to see that everyone is getting nicely the necessities of life. That is economic. Is it not?
Reporter: It is economic in a very, in a very...
Prabhupāda: Brotherhood. Actually, we develop economics for getting the necessities of life. Is it not? That is economics.
Reporter: Yeah. But the point is that these necessities of life is a frontier, you know, (indistinct) which is always farther, and farther and farther, always more pushed, pushed away, pushed away by new things. So...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is artificial. That is artificial. We are not concerned with artificial things. Just like you require to eat. Now artificially you can increase so many things for eating purposes. But you must eat. That is the economic question. It is not that you should starve. It is not our proposal that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious by starving. No. You must have sufficient necessities of life.
Reporter: All right. So... The purpose for economic plan of all the planet, for the world would be everybody can eat, and I suppose just, just eating and some clothes and some roof to be, if you are in a cold country...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Eating, sleeping... Sleeping requires roof, apartment. So it includes your housing, your eating, your sex urge, and your defence. Everything should be nicely... So arrangement should be made that people are not harassed for these necessities of life.
Reporter: And all the rest is superfluous. Is too much.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Reporter: All the rest is superficial, is superficial.
Prabhupāda: What is superficial?
Devotee: Extra. Not needed.
Yogeśvara: Anything beyond these four basics is...
Prabhupāda: That is necessities of life. Because you have got this body, so you must supply the necessities of the body. That we supply. Not only that. We want to keep men in so peaceful condition that he's not disturbed by mental anxieties, bodily disease, natural disturbances and fighting or quarreling with other living entities. So when he's perfectly in peaceful condition of life, he can save time for advancement in spiritual consciousness.
Reporter: Sure, so...
Prabhupāda: But aim is that his life, everyone's life is meant for spiritual realization. So to, in order to achieve this end of life he must be kept in peaceful condition of life.
Yogeśvara: He asks: "In order to achieve these goals is it our intention to do like the Christians and make everyone convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?"
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: In order to achieve our goals, do we intend doing like the Christians tried to do, making everyone convert to their side. Is that what we want to do, make everyone convert to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? If Kṛṣṇa consciousness is good, why everyone should not take to it?
Yogeśvara: Ah. This is an important question. He says seeing the world as it is today, what is the most preferable social organization from the Kṛṣṇa conscious point of view?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: How should society be organized in order to achieve these goals?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You organize that there should be division of different classes of men. The first class men, the second class men, the third class men, fourth class men. The first-class men means the most intelligent class of men. Second-class men means those who are dealing in politics. Third-class men means those who are dealing in economics, industry, trade. And fourth-class men means they have no intelligence to take up all these things, but they work only. But all of them should cooperate. For the general benefit of the whole human society. We have got engagement for the first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Just like we have got in our body the brain, the arms, the belly, and the legs. But all of them are cooperating for keeping the body fit. Similarly, the first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men should cooperate for achieving the end, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Bhagavān: It's not that one class is feeling exploited by another class.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Helping. Just like when there is some pain in my leg. My brain is working how to cure it. It is helping. It is not exploiting. Similarly, my brain wants to go somewhere to see something. My leg is helping to carry me there. Just like you wanted to see me. Your brain said that: "I must see this man." Your leg carried you. This is cooperation. You have got some capacity. You do it for the benefit of the society so that he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This, this plan is perfect socialism. Socialism, socialism means everyone is working for elevation of everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because that is the highest perfection of life.
Bhagavān: Another question?
Reporter: No, I think it's all right. You have a speech tomorrow? You will have a speech tomorrow?
Prabhupāda: Where?
Bhagavān: Yes, here, yes.
Devotee: Here, it'll be.
Bhagavān: Here. In the afternoon you are scheduled to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the subject matter? Any (indistinct).
Bhagavān: As you like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is the most refined socialism. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Our socialism means centering around Kṛṣṇa. Just like Russian socialism is around the ideas of Marx or Lenin. So we have got also similar leader. As the communist has got the leader, Marx or Lenin, similarly we have also got the leader, Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: There is, there is kind of socialist or communist philosophy that says that everyone must be able to do the same work in order to be equal.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position.
Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Yogeśvara: In ISKCON, are there these four divisions?
Prabhupāda: No, we are transcendental to all these material divisions. This is material division.
Yogeśvara: In that case, in which of these four divisions are we?
Prabhupāda: First-class. That is the beginning. But we go above the first-class. [break] Similarly, socially also, you must have four divisions. The reason is the material nature is working under three divisions, goodness, passion and ignorance. In our body also, the brain is working under goodness quality. The arm is working under the influence of passion. The belly is working in between passion and ignorance. And the leg is working under ignorance. Leg cannot work unless there is direction by the brain. At the present moment, the society's working under the influence of passion and ignorance. The brain is lacking now. Therefore we are creating Kṛṣṇa conscious men who has got real brain. Intelligent class of men. So other classes of men who are acting under influence of passion and ignorance, they should take direction from us. And for our directing business, we don't charge anything. And if they follow our direction, they have no loss.
Bhagavān: It can be tested.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this movement is the most important movement. For giving direction, we don't charge, and by following our direction, they don't lose anything. So why not make an experiment and see the result? The result is already there. Any intelligent man can see. It is not bluff.
Bhagavān: We are living, sixty, seventy people in this house, cooperatively, like this. That is a very great thing.
Prabhupāda: And they are living very happily. You can see from their face. Yes. They are known as bright-faced. Yes. Many, I mean, Christian priests, they came to congratulate me: "Swamiji, how you have made your disciples so jolly and bright-faced?" The government in America, they are surprised, that even after spending millions of dollars, they could not drive away LSD intoxication. And as soon as a intoxicated person comes to our camp, he not only gives up LSD and liquor, he gives up even smoking, drinking tea and coffee. So why not experiment this movement. The greatest socialist movement. If you want to get the socialistic idea, we can give you. Would you like to take?
Reporter: Oh, I don't trust. I could trust. Yeah. But...
Prabhupāda: Our socialistic idea, you can note down...
Reporter: I have nothing to lose but do you think you could manage all society very complex, as our...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: It's more than...
Prabhupāda: We can, we can make the society perfect if they take our advice. Because we are working as the brain.
Bhagavān: He can see Prabhupāda's books. Our philosophy is not small philosophy.
Reporter: Just a last question. Just... You were saying, minute before that the socialism, your socialism is that Kṛṣṇa is your Marx, sort of.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Yeah. But... It will be my last question. What about you in that? Would you be, you are a spiritual chief. Would you be...?
Prabhupāda: I am not spiritual chief. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual chief.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply explaining what Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. I am acting on His behalf. I am acting on His behalf. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that there is no more higher authority than Him. I am speaking to my students: "There is no more higher authority than Kṛṣṇa." So, in other words, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's statement and my statement.
Reporter: I understand. But you know that if you want for changing society you must have a force...
Yogeśvara: You need the strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: You have to have sufficient strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: I may not have sufficient strength. I can... If I can convert a dozen of people, that is my success.
Reporter: I think, I think...
Prabhupāda: And if you want to know our socialistic idea, I can give you.
Reporter: Yeah. Because I thought you know, it was just an idea of your... But I shall never think it was so, so much clear.
Yogeśvara: He never thought that our program was quite so detailed.
Prabhupāda: It is most scientific program.
Bhagavān: We have also economic position.
Prabhupāda: Everything, I have explained. Now our socialist idea is: God is the father of all living beings. And whatever there is on the surface of the globe, on the sea, on the sky, everything belongs to God. And all the sons of God has equal right to enjoy it. But nobody... (aside:) He is finished? But nobody is allowed to take more than he requires. If one takes more than he requires, he's to be punished. This is our socialist idea. As we think all living entities sons of God, therefore even a lizard in my room should not starve.
Bhagavān: He should not starve is the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: He should not be allowed to go hungry.
Prabhupāda: Even a snake is there, he should not also starve. He must have food. We do not support such rascal philosophy that you give food to the man, and send the animals to the slaughterhouse. We do not support this rascaldom, our philosophy is: as human being has got the right to take share of God's property and live, similarly all other living entities, they have got right.
Reporter: Have you a point of view about the demographic problem and the problem of (French)?
Yogeśvara: Do we have a viewpoint on contraception?
Prabhupāda: That is most sinful activity. Because a child is coming to live at the expense of God's property, and the rascal father is thinking of overpopulation.
Yogeśvara: Or, as Prabhupāda was saying, he's thinking there's overpopulation.
Reporter: (French)
Yogeśvara: But he says but this is a fact, this overpopulation.
Prabhupāda: That is another wrong impression. Foolish impression. The whole world has got sufficient place to produce food for ten times the population as it is now. The Americans, they throw grains in the water. So if they send the excess grain to the place where grain is not sufficient, then it is God conscious-ness. If the so-called overpopulation is spread all over the world, there is sufficient place in Africa, Australia, America. The overpopulation can grow their food in these vast uncultivated land.
Yogeśvara: He says that only resolves the problem for a few years.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. We don't believe it. That is not...
Yogeśvara: Why. Why is it that this program...?
Prabhupāda: Why do they think that it is for few years?
Yogeśvara: He's thinking that the Earth is not capable of providing enough...
Prabhupāda: What does he know about Earth? His knowledge is not sufficient. He, he's speaking like a woman who saw in the marketplace in the morning thousands of people have gathered, and she began to cry: "Where I shall give place to these men?" So her son came: "My dear mother, don't cry. You come in the evening. We shall find some solution." So when she came in the evening, there was nobody.
Yogeśvara: You can translate that story? (French) (to Prabhupāda:) She went there to buy her foodstuffs?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: So you are thinking in that way. "How I shall provide this population?" That is the old woman's crying. Without sufficient knowledge. We do not believe in this, all rascaldom. We believe in God. If God can create... just like animals. They do not cry. They're increasing. The hogs and dogs, even lower animals... This is demonic economy. A man is holding thousands of acres of land and he's thinking of overpopulation. Why not he distributes the thousands of acres of land to the people? They would produce their own food. That is the, that is the defect of so-called socialism. But here we give a right type of socialism.
Yogeśvara: He thinks he has a fairly clear idea of what our program is now.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Thank you very much for this (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Bhagavān: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Dr. Inger.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Come. Come on.
Yogeśvara: Give him some prasādam before he leaves.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Take little prasādam.
Reporter: Thank you very much.
Dr. Inger: I was hoping, many years since I went to London to the Hare Krishna center there...,
Prabhupāda: Oh, you have been in our temple?
Dr. Inger: Many times, yes. And I had followed the booklets that came, Back to Godhead, also read. I didn't get, I didn't have a copy of the Bhāgavatam, but I read your translations...
Prabhupāda: You are Indian?
Dr. Inger: Yes, I'm an Indian. I have been working a long time in Paris. I am a resident more or less in Paris. I work for UNESCO, and I'm a writer. I go backwards and forwards a lot to India. But my headquarters have been here for a long time. So I'm associated...
Prabhupāda: How long you are here?
Dr. Inger: In France, I've been twenty-five years.
Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. And wherefrom you came?
Dr. Inger: Punjab.
Prabhupāda: Punjab.
Dr. Inger: Before it was divided into two.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes.
Dr. Inger: Before the...
Prabhupāda: Which district.
Dr. Inger: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Which district?
Dr. Inger: Lahore.
Prabhupāda: Lahore.
Dr. Inger: Lahore.
Prabhupāda: Lahore City proper.
Dr. Inger: Yes. I taught there. And then, of course, it was divided, and, before that, I came here and joined.
Prabhupāda: I went to Lahore sometimes.
Dr. Inger: I see.
Prabhupāda: In 1925. There, in Lahore, there is, there were many Bengalis.
Dr. Inger: Oh yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So one Bengali gentleman, he was Mr. Mitha, they were physician. So I became his guest. They were very well-to-do men. They were living therefore two, three generations. Mithi family.
Dr. Inger: I see. There was also some man called Birmitha. Was he the same? Bir...
Prabhupāda: I, I...
Dr. Inger: Perhaps...
Prabhupāda: I forget the name.
Dr. Inger: Yes, there were quite a number of Bengalis there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. Inger: Long time ago.
Prabhupāda: Long time ago. I went there in 1925. I was going to Kashmir. On my way I stopped in Lahore, Amritsar, and some other places.
Dr. Inger: Yes, and yes, and then, you came first to Europe about six years ago?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Inger: Yes, that's right. That's when... It was about a year after that I, or two years, that I went to London. And then saw the, saw there several times. And then, of course, been reading books. Here, too, I came across some people. When it first started, it was in Boulevard Raspail. Then it went to Fontenay Aux Rose.
Yogeśvara: He's been following our movement here in Paris as well.
Dr. Inger: Yes, yes. I met a few. In fact the, this young Spaniard who showed us up, I saw him when he was selling a few things in the Drug Store. Yes. You know. Malas and other stuff.
Bhagavān: So now we are much bigger.
Dr. Inger: Yes, yes. Of course. And...
Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books?
Dr. Inger: No, no. I have only seen a few in London.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you show our books. Show him?
Dr. Inger: I haven't seen the new ones. I have seen the...
Prabhupāda: Bring all the books.
Devotee: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam? [break]
Prabhupāda: These books have been produced within six years.
Dr. Inger: Really!
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Inger: Fantastic. I do not know how. So much work, incredible!
Prabhupāda: I work at night, writing books. My work is going on. At night, I write. [break] In the UNESCO, to understand God or spiritual life, they do not think it a necessary?
Dr. Inger: Well, that's a very, very important question. I think that the real trouble is that all of them are bureaucrats, sitting in offices, creating more jobs for other officers. I was one of the earliest members. I came when Dr. Radhakrishnan was the, was our president. And... At the very early stage. In those days, there was that feeling, that some importance should be given, but because it became a governmental organization, because every religion thinks that they should have a part to play in it, what they did was, they brought out, in ten volumes, a scientific and cultural history of mankind. But it has, it's only incidentally philosophy, only incidentally religion. The only religious books that have come out are those that have been translated. Old books like the second book to the East, for instance. Max Muller's books. And they have been reprinted. And occasionally a few translations have been done from Tulasidāsa or some other philosophers, rewritten, like Śaṅkara later on. But, but all of those have been done because somebody else has commissioned them. But otherwise, there isn't... Except they have had some meetings in various placed. But at none of these meetings do they really discuss the problem that of the, well occasional people, occasional philosophers, they never really discuss that. I think because the word, religion, I think probably is the stumbling block...
Prabhupāda: No, apart from religion. Religion may be sentiment or some emotion. That is another thing.
Dr. Inger: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But we can ask what is this cosmic manifestation, what is the purpose of this, who created, how it is created. Are they not scientific?
Dr. Inger: Yes. Now this is another problem. Everything of a philosophical kind, they call it science, human sciences, natural sciences, moral sciences. They think that is a fault(?) to satisfy scientific spirit. I think from that point of view, they allow big conferences to be held where a particular theme is taken, different people come. So the organization encourages, stimulates activities proposed, submitted and finally passed in resolutions by different commissions and different countries. And then it's held. And at that particular time, some people come and speak. So they have had... But they haven't... Mostly these meetings have been held and... Very few have been held here, except when they celebrated the tintinary(?) of Aurobindo, last year. Or when they celebrated the centenary of, another centenary of Ramakrishna. Like that. But not always.
Prabhupāda: Not Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Inger: They haven't. Not so far. Because from their point of view they have to prove the dates, historical dates, how many centuries, and so forth.
Prabhupāda: It is there in the śāstras.
Dr. Inger: I know. But so... If one can put it that way, then somebody has to submit that we are going to celebrate the three thousand anniversary, or four thousand anniversary, and... But no such step has been taken. But such an idea can be proposed.
Prabhupāda: No, suppose the United Nations is the organization of the whole human society, so if I ask the United Nations, as an organization that: "What is the purpose of this cosmic manifestation?" That is a fact. There is a cosmic manifestation. The scientists, they are also trying to understand. So there are so many scientists, philosophers, what is their answer? Suppose I am inquisitive to know something. So where shall I inquire?
Dr. Inger: Now if you were to inquire from... Because the only organization which deals with culture, therefore philosophy, therefore religion, therefore art, therefore music, is UNESCO Paris. Not New York. And if you did put such a question, you would get some kind of reply from one of the directors who says: "We, we... Such a proposal has not been made. But if such a proposal is made, let us say, presented, by any member state, out of the hundred and twenty-six or twenty-seven member states, and it is submitted to the general conference where it meets in session, two years in October, and is passed through, we will be able..." Now usually what happens is one country presents it and if the, and what it means in terms of expense, how much, how many people are going to be invited, and what is going to be the plan. And if that is done, they would say: "Yes, I think such a study has to be made." And it's possible to make it.
Prabhupāda: A sectarian question.
Dr. Inger: No, no, no. It won't be.
Prabhupāda: It is... Why it should be presented to Pārtha-sārathi. Even American representative or English representative or French representative, any representative can do...
Dr. Inger: Because being a governmental organization, the only kind of reply one would get from such a question would be a very polite and courteous one, but it wouldn't have... No action would be taken. Action can only be taken, if it is governmentally presented. That is the only problem. There are many ideas which come forward, boundless ones, but the people need to present them officially. And... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...your position there?
Dr. Inger: Well, now I am a consultant. I used to be a regular member of the staff for a long time. Now I do certain projects for them, and I'm a visiting professor, and I'm a writer, visiting professor at different universities. So I'm connected with, with UNESCO in a way that I can not be now a permanent member of the staff which I was... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...purpose is not to propose only. Because I wish that there are so many scient..., scientific men, philosophers and thoughtful men... Suppose even if I ask you, what is your answer, that what is the purpose...? The cosmic manifestation is there, the universe is there, and there are innumerable planets within this universe, and they are very organizely kept. Everything is nicely going on. The sun is rising in due time. The moon is rising in due time. The seasons, seasons are changing. There is nice organization. So is it not a bona fide inquiry to, "What is the purpose of this organization?"
Dr. Inger: Well, the purpose is to understand oneself in relation to the cosmos.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Inger: And therefore everything else is valueless if it has no relation to the total.
Prabhupāda: No, relation is already there because, as the sun is part of this cosmos, I'm also one of the parts. So why the sun is made and why I am also made? What is this purpose? That is my question.
Dr. Inger: There's a discovery of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. The relation is already there.
Dr. Inger: The discoveries...
Prabhupāda: Because I am part of this creation. Now why I am created a man, another is created an elephant, another is created Brahmā, another is created ant, another is created...? So many. Why this is?
Dr. Inger: The purpose of life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I, I, I, I don't think anyone has thought over this matter.
Dr. Inger: It certainly needs to be...
Prabhupāda: But there is. There are so many philosophers, scientists... Why do they not try to think of it? What is this purpose?
Dr. Inger: Well, some have tried to talk about the purpose of existence that we are little entities of no significance. Some... Because...
Prabhupāda: No. My question is why you have become a little entity, another has become big entity?
Dr. Inger: Some people would say that it is due to our past. Past connections or reincarnations.
Devotee: Karma.
Dr. Inger: karma.
Prabhupāda: So. Yes, karma...
Dr. Inger: Exactly. What we have gone through. We are the, we are the result of our past actions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. That is a fact. Because we get all this information from Vedic literature. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. You understand Sanskrit?
Dr. Inger: Little bit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantor deha upapattaye. A living entity is getting body by, as a result of his karma. And supervised by higher authority. Now when we speak of karma, or result of karma, there must be somebody who will judge. Just like one has stolen something, and the magistrate is judging the karma, the criminal activity, and he's putting him either in the prison house or getting him released. "No, he's not culprit." So as soon as we speak of karma, there must be somebody else to judge. And that judgement is said: daiva netreṇa. Daiva means divine supervision. So what is that divine supervision? Next question immediately comes. As soon as you accept karma, and the resultant action, and it is supervised by the divine authority, then next question will be: what is that divine authority? In this way, we have to go forward. So that sort of education is nowhere in the world.
Dr. Inger: No. Not here, in any case.
Prabhupāda: No, here, or India, or everywhere.
Dr. Inger: Yes. Nobody is...
Prabhupāda: So that means people have become so dull in spite of so-called education.
Dr. Inger: That is true.
Prabhupāda: That's, that's my point.
Dr. Inger: Oh yes. Education is merely book knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā.
Dr. Inger: ...of substance given, read, prepared.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Dr. Inger: They don't go to the basic.
Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as simply wasting time. That's all.
Śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone is acting. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ. According to Vedic civilization, there are four divisions of men. brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and further, spiritual divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So everyone has got some duty according to his position. So Bhāgavata says that even a person executes his duty very perfectly, but if he does not awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all that he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the UNESCO, United Nations, UNO, they're simply wasting their time. From practical point of view, they're unable to do anything. Because the original idea was to stop war. But the war is going on, fighting is going on. They could not stop it. And United Nations... But actually they are becoming disunited more and more. Pakistan was not there. You know very well. Lahore was your country. Now it is other's country. So in this way, there cannot be any solution. There cannot be any solution. We must know the central point. The central point is Kṛṣṇa. We get from... I'm not manufacturing these ideas. Bhagavad-gita is recognized book. There it is stated that:
If, actually, anyone wants śānti, peace, he must know these three things: The Lord, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the enjoyer, bhokta. What is called? Beneficiary? Yes. Because He's the owner. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. And He's friend of everyone. Suhṛdaṁ-sarva-bhūtānām. Jñātvā, knowing this, mām, Me, Kṛṣṇa says, śāntim ṛcchati, there is śānti. There is śānti. Otherwise, this, this so-called conference, and big, big office, big, big salary, big, big officers, it will never be successful.
Dr. Inger: Quite. And this basis, which is the essence of everything.
Prabhupāda: Three things only.
Dr. Inger: Yes. That is one thing they want to avoid.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their nonsense.
Dr. Inger: In other words, everything else is a plan or an excuse to escape from yourself.
Prabhupāda: That means it is a association of cheaters and cheated. Somebody wants to cheat and somebody's being cheated. That's all. That is our opinion. So how the association of cheaters and cheated can do anything good to the human society? They're cheaters. They do not know how this peace has to be attained, and they're trying to attain peace in their own way. Therefore they're cheaters. You do not a subject matter, how to do it, and you're trying to do it, that means you are cheater. It may be very strong words, but the fact is there. Why should you try something which you do not know adequately? That is our protest.
Dr. Inger: Well, many people would say that the use of the intellect alone, which is an excuse for not going deep into oneself, is the technique that is used. What can be rationally explained, only rationally explained, is what matters.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Inger: Anything where, something beyond reason, call it intuition...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is quite reasonable. When... [break]
Prabhupāda: Everything... In this table, whatever is there, it is created. The table is created. The light is created. Everything is created by somebody. So how I can deny this fact, that somebody has created the whole universe? If you say, "It has comes automatically, dropped," that is rascaldom. It must be accepted somebody has created. So who is that somebody? You have not created. The Americans have not created, the Englishmen have not created, or I have created, you have created, but we can understand that somebody has created. So who will be the proprietor? I shall be proprietor or the creator shall be proprietor? Who shall be the proprietor?
Dr. Inger: Creator. Of course.
Prabhupāda: Creator. So why you are claiming other's property as "my own"? "This is my country. This is my country." And we are so rascal and we are making United Nation.
Dr. Inger: It doesn't belong to anyone.
Prabhupāda: It doesn't belong to anyone. And these rascals are claiming, "This is my. This is my, this is my flag. This is..." Therefore they are all cheaters. And they are combining and trying to cheat other that "How much I can cheat you." "I am American. How much I can cheat you, Russian." Russian thinking, "Yes, I am also cheater. How much I can cheat you." This is going on, cheaters and cheated. And they are wasting their time. Is that civilization, to become cheater and cheated and waste our time in some so-called conferences? Is that civilization, do you think?
Dr. Inger: No. Not at all, but that's exactly as you say.
Prabhupāda: American, they cheated the Red Indians. They got the land. Now they are claiming, "It is my land." But where you got this land? You have cheated the Red Indians, and you claim now it is your land. "Nobody should come here." Everywhere that is there it belongs to... Napoleon, he thought, "France is mine." France is there. Where he has gone, the proprietor? Yes. And with this idea he fought so much. Now nobody knows what he has become, where he is living, either in France or in hell, maybe in heaven. But there are so many places and so many forms of life. And our Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. Just like I am now in this body. Child is in this body. So all of us sometimes were in this body, childish. So where is that body? That body is not existing. But I am existing; you are existing. You know that you had such a body. You were also playing like this child. I also remember. So the body is not existing. I am existing. So I have got a different body now. So where is the difficulty to under-stand that when this body is also finished I get another body? Where is the difficulty? And Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. As we are changing from one body to another, another, another, even within our experience, similarly, as soon as this body is finished, I get another body. Now I am working in this body as national, as Napoleon, as Gandhi, as you according to our own whims and ideas, and fighting in the UNESCO, everything, just like recently Pakistan representative, India... But as soon as the body is finished, just like Gandhi finished, Jinnah finished, now what kind of body he has got now? May not be Indian or Pakistani. Now in that body he is thinking according to his body, a dog is thinking according to the doggish body. A man is thinking according to the man's body. So thinking and everything is changed with the change of the body. Just like this child is. This child, she cannot concentrate because due to the body. Other gentlemen, ladies, they can concentrate. So she has to get a different body to have a different mentality. So in other words, with the change of the body the mentality changes. So in this body I am thinking of France, and if my next body, it is not in France or is not human, I will think otherwise. So the whole duration of my life which I thought in one way, that is simply wasted. Simply wasted. They do not know. This knowledge is lacking. There is no such knowledge in the university, any education, nothing. Simply they are wasting time. Simply. They have no perfect knowledge. They are wasting their time, and doing something just like childish, and going on as advanced in civilization, and so on, so on, so on. Now they should think. Simply on some utopian ideas they should not go. They should know, "What is the purpose of life, what is our connection with this cosmic manifestation, if... There must be some creator. Who is that creator? What is my relation with Him?" These... There are so many things. But they are neglecting. And still, they are passing on as scientist, as philosopher, as politicians and leaders.
Dr. Inger: That's the worst of governments you see, because they stand, as You said rightly each for himself.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, we are discussing this point, that this illusion is going on. But human form of life, a human being can get out of this illusion. We have got sufficient sources of knowledge, especially in the Vedic knowledge. So why do we not take advantage of this knowledge and make our life successful? Yes. That is my proposal. And we are struggling with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement with this purpose only, that these people are missing the point and wasting their time and life unnecessarily under some illusion. To try to save them, that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. [break] ...talked with so many Christian priests. Naturally while discussing I asked them that "In your Bible it is said, 'Thou shall not kill.' Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse?" They cannot answer properly. In this way and this way they try to avoid and support this slaughterhouse.
Dr. Inger: It's difficult to answer it.
Prabhupāda: This is going on.
Dr. Inger: When I asked a group of priests at a meeting which was to celebrate the anniversary of a leading Catholic thinker, I.R. Shadder(?), I just asked him about the Sermon on the Mount, referring to similarities between the teachings of Sermon on the Mount and Hindu thought. He says, "You see, but the point is this, that the Sermon on the Mount is not meant for everybody. It is only meant for a very few. And therefore most of us, including the present company," he said, "cannot use it in everyday life." I said, "Do you mean it is only meant for monks?" He hesitated but said, "If you like, yes." But I said, "I imagined that this was meant for everyone and that anyone could follow it." And he said, "Well, it is too dangerous a teaching to give to everyone."
Prabhupāda: Just see. And therefore I say, "Cheater and cheated." Yes. Similarly, scientists also. Recently in Los Angeles, California University, one professor, a big scientist came. He's a Nobel Prize owner. He described, gave lecture. He has written one book, on which he has got Nobel Prize, Evolution of Chemicals. He wants to prove by chemical, combination of chemical, life has come into existence. That is his theory, like Darwin's theory, that life is from matter or chemical. So after hearing the lecture, there is a professor also, a student, yes. He is also Doctor of Chemistry. He is my disciple. He inquired that "If I give you all these chemicals, whether you can produce life?" At that time he said, "That I cannot say." Just see. He is proposing that "From these chemicals, life has begun," and when he is questioned whether by supplying these chemicals he can produce a life, he said, "That I cannot say." This is going on. Then what is the... Then, if you cannot say, then why you are saying that from these chemicals life has come? So when they are caught up for practical purposes, they'll deny. And they are passing on as philosopher, as scientist, priest, and these things. Just see. (someone comes in) What is that?
Haṁsadūta: This is your visa. It's been extend...
Guru-gaurāṅga: I just came back from the airport, and they made it good.
Haṁsadūta: It's been extended up until the 16th.
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda will be here till the 16th, so if you would like to come back, if you would like to bring some friends...
Dr. Inger: Yes, I would most certainly like to come back if I may. What is the best time?
Bhagavān: About three to four in the evening.
Prabhupāda: In the evening at four.
Dr. Inger: All right. I would like to bring Chauhan(?) and two other men.
Bhagavān: You can bring as many as you like.
Yogeśvara: We have a very great interest in having people with something to say, some ability to respond to the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, come and confront our movement.
Dr. Inger: Yes, I gathered from the papers that you had had Jean Danielou.
Yogeśvara: Cardinal Danielou. Yes, that meeting has already taken place. That was yesterday with the cardinal. He read in the newspaper that it was going to take place. Where did you read that?
Dr. Inger: Yes. In Le Monde, yesterday. Because Cardinal Danielou has brother called Alec.
Yogeśvara: This is the Vedic writer, the cardinal's brother.
Dr. Inger: Yes, he was never (indistinct) he did a lot of translation work, studies in Madras. So then...
Yogeśvara: Is this the article?
Dr. Inger: Yes, this is the article. It says right here. (end)
730810rc.par
Room Conversation with Anna Conan Doyle,
daughter-in-law of famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

August 10, 1973, Paris
Prabhupāda: ...desert in India, is expanding. It is coming near to Mathurā and Vṛndāvana. So everyone is concerned.
Bhagavān: The desert is expanding because it's...
Prabhupāda: Desert expands. As everything expands and diminishes, desert also... That is nature's course. Desert means less production. So na..., if nature wants, she can make the whole world desert. What your tractors and so many agricultural machines will help? It will turn into desert. There will be no rain. What you can do? And still you are very proud of your scientific advancement. You cannot struggle with nature.
Bhagavān: They have one city in Italy. It's called Venice. And it's built... They say they have conquered the ocean. So they've gone out into the ocean and built it up, and there are so many houses. And you travel through the city on boat. That's the only way you can get... And now the city's sinking.
Prabhupāda: Sinking?
Bhagavān: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Then what they are doing?
Bhagavān: They are concerned.
Prabhupāda: The indication is already there. Still, they are not alarmed. They have to leave that place. Sinking also Mexico.
Haṁsadūta: Mexico, yes. Mexico City is built on..., also (indistinct). But that's not very... In New York, in New York, you know, they have so many tunnels under the ground that every now and then there's some place, some place just caves in, the street will suddenly just cave in. Because there's so many tunnels for electric wires and plumbing, for the subways, everything. And the whole thing is...
Prabhupāda: I have seen in New York, Park Street...
Devotees: Park Avenue.
Prabhupāda: Park Avenue, that one skyscraper foundation was... And I see within the foundation, the subway train is running.
Haṁsadūta: Within the foundation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And I was looking at least five, ten stories from the subway.
Haṁsadūta: They're working so much just for this...
Guru-gaurāṅga: They have people here in Paris that work in the subway, in the Metro. And when they have to make repairs, they close the Metro down, twelve o'clock at night, and they come and work from twelve o'clock at night all through the brāhma-muhūrta and work in the Metro, on the tracks, and they leave at four in the morning, and the Metro starts again. And there are so many people working in holes in the ground all night like that.
Haṁsadūta: Working just at night. Underground.
Prabhupāda: Repairing?
Haṁsadūta: Repairing.
Prabhupāda: Mouse business. This repairing and working is done by the mouse also.
Bhagavān: At night, they also work at night.
Prabhupāda: Ugra-karma. They have invented working method, very, very hard, very, very... At night, in darkness, go down, ten stories down and work for a livelihood.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Pungent activities.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Pungent activities.
Prabhupāda: And lots of land is lying in our Letchmore Heath. They won't work for producing food. That land is kept for keeping cows for killing them. And for their food, they are working underneath the ground, and whatever money they get, they import grains. Just see the māyā's influence, that: "We are working, getting money, and importing grains." Why not work and grow grains? Now he's thinking that: "I'll get more money underground, than by cultivating on the surface." This is māyā. He's working very hard. Still, he's thinking it is better happiness. "I haven't to work on the surface. I am working underground. Therefore I am happy." This is māyā. He'll prefer that kind of work. But he won't agree to grow food on the surface of the country.
Bhagavān: That's because in America, for example, the government will pay so much money. They will pay you more than if you grow so many fields of...
Prabhupāda: No, it is my experience. I have seen practically all parts of the world. If we grow food, all countries, especially America, both North and South, whole America, whole Canada, whole Africa, whole Australia... They are not producing food. There is so much land. So if you combine together on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scarcity of food anywhere, in any part of the world.
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, when we talk like this, is this to perhaps mean sometime in the future the movement will become so big that...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, if we accept that Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of everything, then it becomes one state, as it was formerly, five thousand years ago.
Bhagavān: But to do that from the position the world is in today, it seems like it's so, it'd be almost, very difficult to come to that platform again, unless we...
Prabhupāda: It may be difficult, but the philosophy is there. Solution is there.
Bhagavān: That requires getting some kind of political position perhaps? At least, if not us, someone else adopting the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, appreciating them, or...
Prabhupāda: Now thing is that political consciousness... Just like Hitler planned, Napoleon planned. They also thought that: "If I can unite all these European states under my plan, under my 'ism,' they will be happy." That is the plan. He also thinks like that. But whether he is perfect? This Lenin, this Hitler, this Napoleon, whether they are perfect? So unless they are perfect, any such utopian planning will not help.
Bhagavān: But for our plan to be put into action on big scale, big people must accept, who, who are presently, who presently have power to control the state.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: So is this to say that we must...?
Prabhupāda: The big people are rogues. Just like yesterday we talked with the Cardinal. He is defending animal-killing. He's a rogue. Anyone who is killing animal, he's a rogue. But he is representing as big man, important man.
Bhagavān: So either they must accept our philosophy, or we must replace them.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: That is...
Prabhupāda: First, first of all, you take care of yourself. Then you think of others. [break]
Devotee: ...hear from Bhagavad-gītā (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: How he claims to be the body?
Bhagavān: He says people say that there is consciousness in this body because there is the soul. Then at the end of the body, soul is finished, the body is finished. Everything finished.
Prabhupāda: Why soul is finished?
Bhagavān: Because they say the body is finished.
Prabhupāda: No body is finished. My childhood body is finished, but the soul is not finished.
Bhagavān: They will not listen logically. What can you do?
Prabhupāda: How it is? My childhood body, my babyhood body is finished. It is no longer existing. So how I am existing? Therefore his statement that body is finished and the soul is finished is wrong. We see practically. The body is finished, the soul is existing. This is practical. Why he's talking nonsense—"The body is finished, and the soul is finished." Where the soul is finished? I remember my childhood body. So I, I am existing, but my childhood body's finished. That is the fact. Therefore with the annihilation of the body, the soul does not annihilate. This is the conclusion.
Guru-gaurāṅga: The baby body is finished. But soul is still there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru-gaurāṅga: So when this body is finished, why shall the soul be gone?
Prabhupāda: Even the father, mother is not crying. The mother's baby dies. She cries, she becomes mad. But when the child gives up that childhood body, accept another body, she's happy because she knows: "My son is there. He has only changed the body." The mother knows. Mother is not crying: "Oh, where is my child gone, sir?" He knows that "My child is here. He has changed his body." These are the arguments. If the foolish rascal will not accept genuine arguments, logic, then how he can be convinced? He's a animal. The animals cannot be convinced. Any man with little brain substance, he'll understand this. Where is the difficulty? But it is useless to talk with animals. You cannot argue with dogs and hogs. That is not possible. So if their brain is doggish and hoggish, how you can convince them? But the logic is there, the argument is there.
Guru-gaurāṅga: How is it they can see continuity between baby's body and young boy's body and young man's body, they say, "Oh, he's still here," but they can see no continuity between this body and...
Prabhupāda: That, that, he has no eyes. How I have got my continuity of my childhood thoughts and now also? Just like for a old man. He hasn't got so much sexual power, but the sex continuity is there. He wants to enjoy. Therefore he takes some medicine. He takes some injection. Why? The continuity. That means the continuity is mind. The gross body has changed. The mind is there, subtle. Intelligence is there. That is continuity. And that continuity, that subtle body, mind and intelligence, carry me to another body, as it is doing now. My gross body has changed, but mind and intelligence continuing. Similarly when this body will be completely finished, my mind and intelligence will carry me to another gross body. Then in the womb of my mother I shall grow another gross body. The mind and intelligence being continued. And I get a particular type of body on the condition of mind and intelligence at the time of death. Death means finishing this body. But the mind and intelligence is the same. As the air carries the flavor. This is the logic. Everything is...
Guru-gaurāṅga: So is subtle body ever finished?
Prabhupāda: Subtle body can be finished when you are liberated from material bondage.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Otherwise, it's the same subtle body...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Carry, carrying you, carrying you in different types of bodies, gross bodies.
Guru-gaurāṅga: It's the same mind, but it's covered.
Prabhupāda: Subtle body will be finished when you regain your Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Then the subtle, this material mind, intelligence will not work.
Guru-gaurāṅga: But it's one mind. The soul also has a mind.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One mind. There... Just like I am one, but I am speaking just like madman. The man is one, but under some condition he's talking nonsense. So any materialistic man is a madman, under the influence of this energy, external energy. Therefore he's talking all nonsense. Come on. Come on. Namaskāra.
Bhagavān: Sit here.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru-gaurāṅga: This is, this is Anna Conan Doyle(?). And her father-in-law is a very famous author. She's very, very interested. She wanted to put a festival on for you in the Riviera, but didn't have enough money to do it. So she said next year she will do this for you. And she has all your books and reads them every morning. She rises very early and studies Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: She looks very intelligent face. Yes. Yes. Oh, that's nice.
Guru-gaurāṅga: She speaks English.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Anna Conan Doyle: I speak English. I'm Danish but I speak English.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. It is very nice. So intelligent men and women should take interest in this great movement. It is a very scientific spiritual movement. People are suffering for lack of spiritual knowledge. They have become materially like animals. Materialism means animalism. Yes. Materialism means animalism. Animalism means in the lower grade of existence. What is the difference between dog and a human being. He has got a lower grade body, and the human being has got a higher grade body. So the more we become materialistic, we get lower grade body. In the lower grade body, the consciousness works only on four activities, eating sleeping, sex life and defence. This is lower grade activities. And higher grade activities: working for understanding God. That is higher grade life. In the lower grade life, nobody can understand God. In the higher grade life, one can understand God, yes. One can feel with intelligence. Just like dog may understand this is day, this is night. But he does not understand why it is day, why it is night. But a man can understand that it is day because the sun is there. And it is night because sun is now set. That is the difference dog and man. Better knowledge. So as we advance in better knowledge, that is perfection of life. And the topmost knowledge is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then he's most perfect being. That is perfection. Knowledge other than Kṛṣṇa consciousness-degraded knowledge, or lower grade knowledge. So at the present moment, although superficially, we have got very nice building, nice apartment, but the knowledge is doggish. How to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and how to defend. That's all. No more. The same degraded life as the dog. Dog is also trying how to live, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend. He's making: "bak bok bok bok." (barking sound) That is defence. His way of defence. That is defence. He's defending for the master. Similarly dog has also sex life, dog has also sleeps, dog also eats. So if a human being is also engaged in these four principles of business, then where is the difference between him and the dog? He must be interested in the business of understanding God. Then he's human being. Otherwise, he's a dog. Do you agree? Eh?
Anna Conan Doyle: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Anna Conan Doyle: Actually, we are, in a sense, the God to the dog. Aren't we?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Anna Conan Doyle: We are, in a sense, to a dog, we are God to him. As man is a dog, we are God to him, to the dog. Because the way he loves us, his fidelity to us, he doesn't understand God, and we understand God.
Prabhupāda: No, he's not in position to understand God.
Anna Conan Doyle: He doesn't understand. He understands only us.
Prabhupāda: He understands that he has got a superior, but he does not understand who is the most superior. A human being can understand who is the most superior, topmost superior.
Anna Conan Doyle: Well, we have also superior, but we have forgotten to understand that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have forgotten. Everyone is... Dog is also forgotten. But his forgotten stage is more acute. More acute. And human being is advanced.
Bhagavān: Should we distribute this?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: Would you like some, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: In the human form of life, if we do not try to understand God, then we are committing suicide. Yes. Because we got the chance. Nature gave us the chance to understand God. But if we do not divert our attention in understanding God, then we are making suicide. Misuse of human life. For a human being, the only business is how to understand God. Not for economic development. What economic development? This Napoleon planned so many things. But where he is now? Can anyone say where is Napoleon? One astrologer in India has said that Jawaharlal Nehru is now a dog in the house of a gentleman in Sweden.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Could you understand that?
Anna Conan Doyle: Not exactly.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Prabhupāda said that Jawaharlal Nehru, the former prime minister of India, someone has said now he is a house dog in a home in Sweden.
Anna Conan Doyle: I hope not for him.
Prabhupāda: You may not, but nature is different. Just like a child does not hope that if he puts his finger in a fire, it will not burn. But nature is so strict, it doesn't care for the child or the old man. It will burn. I may prove very innocent, but nature doesn't care for that. Nature doesn't care for that. Nature will not show any mercy for the innocent child. No. That is nature. Is it not fact? If a child puts his finger on the fire, nature will not consider that: "Here is a innocent child. He may not be burned." No. Equally. Therefore nature is very strong. We cannot avoid the control of the nature. If you do something, it must acting, react in the same way. The same... If you put your finger in the fire, it must react, burn it. Nature is so strong. So as soon as you violate any law of nature, you'll be punished. That is... Just like God... State police is there, engaged by the government. As soon as you violate law, the police will arrest you and give you punishment. Similarly material nature means the police of God. As soon as you violate God laws, it will give immediately punishment. That is material nature. It is always punishing us. Because we are, one after another, we are violating the laws of God. Therefore she's always punishing. That is her business. Mother nature is described as Goddess Durgā, and she has got a trident in her hand. That is punishment. Three kinds of miserable condition. Adhyātmika, adhibhautika, adhidaivika. Adhyātmika, pertaining to the body and mind, adhibhautika, miserable condition offered by others, and adhidaivika, miserable condition offered by higher authorities. Just like if there is no rain, you cannot do anything. Your so-called science and advancement of knowledge will not be able to help. Or if there is over flood. That also you cannot do anything. Therefore you have to accept there is a controller of this raining. It is not under my control. That is nature. But nature is working under the direction of God. Behind the background of nature is God. Just like background of police force is the government. Similarly, background of the stringent laws of nature is God. That they do not understand. They're struggling with the natural laws. And that struggle they are taking as advancement. That's all. It is a struggle. But they're taking it as advancement. This is called illusion. It is not advancement. It is simply struggle. But they're taking it as advancement. Such a great, powerful man like Napoleon, Hitler, they struggled only. Later on, they vanquished. So what to speak of others? Such big, big men, they struggled against the nature, but they vanquished. Nature is there. Nature is always victorious. So we have to own over victory over the nature. That is only possible if you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, not. Do you think we are right in our statement.
Anna Conan Doyle: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If not you can ask that: "Why I am talking nonsense?" (laughter)
Guru-gaurāṅga: Mrs. Conan Doyle is interested also in speaking in St. Paul in her home about travelling to visit other planets,...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Travelling to visit higher planets, still in the material world, to accumulate experiences before going back home, back to Godhead. I was trying to explain the more important aspect...
Prabhupāda: You can, you can experience. That is stated in the Bhāgavata.
Guru-gaurāṅga: She wants to go to other planets.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Before going home.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated in the Bhāgavata. Yogis, they try to see also other planets. They're inquisitive. Instead of going directly to the planet of Kṛṣṇa, they want to see intermediate planets, how they are working.
Bhagavān: Instead of an express to Goloka.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes. That is natural. Only the strong devotees, they don't like. "No, I don't want to see anything. I want to go immediately to Kṛṣṇa." That is strong devotion. Because they are after, mad after seeing Kṛṣṇa. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam. For them, the whole universe is vacant for want of Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you love somebody, if he's not seen, you see, in spite of so many cars, you see the whole city of Paris, void, void. You don't give you any pleasure. A strong love for Kṛṣṇa. Śūnyāyitam. Śūnyāyitam means everything vacant. Without seeing Kṛṣṇa, everything is vacant. What is the value of this house or this city? He doesn't take. So higher planetary system means better standard of life. Just like if Indian comes here, materially, they see the higher standard of life in Paris, in London. But because we are interested in Kṛṣṇa, we do not take very much care of this higher standard of life. So higher planetary system means many, many thousand times better standard of life. Many, many thousand times. Just like Brahmaloka, the one day of Brahmā, described, you cannot even calculate mathematically. Just find out: sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. This is the topmost planetary system, Brahmaloka, and the duration of life in Brahmaloka is described in the Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā. Sahasra... S-A-H. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam.
Bhagavān: This is Bhagavad-gītā.
Anna Conan Doyle: Oh.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Just like before you said you had a distaste for sight-seeing in Paris, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru-gaurāṅga: You had a distaste for sightseeing wherever you were.
Prabhupāda: No, I don't go.
Śrutakīrti:
sahasra-yuga-paryantam
ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ
rātriṁ yuga-sahasrāntāṁ
te 'ho-rātra-vido janāḥ
[Bg. 8.17]
By human calculation a thousand ages taken together is the duration of Brahmā's one day, and such also is the duration of his night."
Prabhupāda: What is the purport? Read.
Śrutakīrti: "The duration of the material universe is limited. It is manifested in cycles of kalpas. A kalpa is a day of Brahmā and one day of Brahmā consists of a thousand cycles of four yugas or ages, Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara and Kali. A cycle of Satya is characterized by virtue, wisdom and religion, there being practically no ignorance and vice, and the yuga lasts one million, seven hundred and twenty-eight thousand years. In the Tretā-yuga vice is introduced and this yuga lasts 1,296,000 years. In the Dvāpara-yuga there is an even greater decline in virtue and religion, vice increasing, and the yuga lasts 864,000 years. And finally in Kali-yuga, the yuga we have now been experiencing over the past five thousand years, there is an abundance of strife, ignorance, irreligion and vice, true virtue being practically non-existent, and this yuga lasts 432,000 years. In Kali-yuga vice increases to such a point that at the termination of the yuga, the Supreme Lord Himself appears as the Kalki avatāra, vanquishes the demons, saves His devotees and commences another Satya-yuga. Then the process is set rolling again. These four yugas, rotating a thousand times, compromise one day of Brahmā, the creator god, and the same number compromise one night. Brahmā lives one hundred of such years and then dies. These hundred years, by Earth calculations total to 311,000,040,000,000 Earth years. By these calculations, a life of Brahmā seems fantastic and interminable, but from the point, from the viewpoint of eternity, it is as brief as a lightning flash. In the Causal Ocean, there are innumerable Brahmās, rising and disappearing like bubbles in the Atlantic. Brahmā and his creation are all part of the material universe, and therefore they are in constant flux. In the material universe, not even Brahmā is free from the process of birth, disease, old age and death. Brahmā, however, is directly engaged in the service of the Supreme Lord in the management of this universe. Therefore he at once attains liberation. Elevated sannyāsīs are promoted to Brahmā's particular planet, Brahmaloka, which is the highest planet in the material universe, and which survives all the heavenly planets in the upper strata of the planetary system. But in due course, Brahmā, and all inhabitants of Brahmaloka are subject to death, according to the law of material nature."

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