690804lc.la
Lord Caitanya Play Told to Tamala Krsna

August 4, 1969, Los Angeles
Tamala Krsna: The first thing about this... Can you tell me something about Lord Caitanya's birth, when He was born, what happened, what was it like, all about it.
Prabhupada: When He was...? Description of His birth?
Tamala Krsna: Well, we will have a scene showing the people chanting by the..."
Prabhupada: One scene you have to show that in the Ganges water people are taking bath, and there is on the sky beginning of the moon eclipse, lunar eclipse. And they are all chanting Hare Krsna and taking bath. And exactly at that time Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared. This is one scene. And the appearance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu should be underneath a tree. Under this scene, this scene, one... Advaita Prabhu's wife, Srivasa's wife, they were elderly, and all other women of the village, they immediately came with presentation. And some of the demigods, they also came, I mean to say, disguising themselves as ordinary men, with presentation. And His father got so many valuable presentations. And then again, some of the professional dancers, they came. So he distributed charity to them. In this way, that function... Try to...
Tamala Krsna: Was Narada there? Did Narada Muni come?
Prabhupada: Yes. Narada Muni also came. You can show that. Yes. all the devatas, all the demigods came. Narada Muni, Brahma, Siva. They came in disguise, and their wife, Savitri, and then Uma. Uma is the wife of Lord Siva. In that way you can show so many demigods and their wives coming. Yes.
Tamala Krsna: All the women, when Lord Caitanya was a baby, how did they feel about Him?
Prabhupada: The baby was on the lap of His mother, and they looked little far-off, just to glance over the baby, not touching. Because newly born baby. So they saw from little distant. That's all. And the baby was very beautiful. He was golden complexion. And His grandfather was a great astrologer, His mother's father, Nilambara Cakravarti. He immediately calculated His horoscope, constellation of the stars under which He was born. He calculated that "This boy will be a great reformer."
Tamala Krsna: What is the position of astrology in Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: Astrology is a science. Krsna consciousness has nothing to do with astrology, but it is the general custom that as soon as a child is born the astrologers come. That is the Indian system, Vedic system.
Tamala Krsna: Lord Caitanya, He would cry so that He could hear them chanting Hare Krsna to Him?
Prabhupada: Yes. That was not on that day, but when He was little grown up. As soon as He would cry, so the neighboring friends of His mother, all young girls would come and chant Hare Krsna and He'll stop. Sometimes they would tease Him so that He may cry, and they'll see that He's crying, and they'll chant Hare Krsna, and He'll stop. Again tease. (laughs) So that Caitanya Mahaprabhu was preaching Hare Krsna chanting by His childhood activities.
Tamala Krsna: What are some of the things that He did when He was a little boy? Some tricks or things?
Prabhupada: Sometimes He would play with snakes. One day, when He was crawling in the courtyard... Indian house... As, just like here is compound outside. In Indian house there is courtyard inside. So He was crawling in the yard, and a snake came, a snake. And He began to play with the snake. The snake will do like this and crawling, and He would see it, He would strike. In this way the snake was playing and the mother became so much afraid. They cannot touch. If the snake bites... So they simply saw that the child is playing with the snake, and after some time the snake went away. And they took up the child, "Oh, God has saved this child, otherwise He would have been killed. Such a venomous, big snake."
Govinda dasi: It was a big snake? Very big? And was it Sesa?
Prabhupada: That is another thing. It may be understood that he was Sesa, but that was the incident. And another incident is that when He was just walking... So it is the system that small children, they are decorated with ornaments here, here, bangle, so many ornaments, here. So one thief saw that... He stole away the child. So he was seeking some secret place, lonely place, so that he can rob of... In this way seeking, seeking, he traveled, and at last he came just in front of the house, and he dropped the child, that "Somebody may see that I have taken this child. Then I'll be beaten, I will be caught." So out of fear he fled away. And the guardians, ladies, they were very much anxious, "Who has taken the child? He was with ornaments." But they saw that the child is there. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu enjoyed for some time on the shoulder of the thief.
Tamala Krsna: Were they liberated souls? The thief?
Prabhupada: At least, after Caitanya Mahaprabhu's getting on their shoulders, (laughs) they must have been liberated. No flower? Bring some flower.
Tamala Krsna: He would sometimes eat clay?
Prabhupada: Yes. That was when He was about three years old. So generally, for morning the children given nice sandesa, sweetmeat, and this puffed rice in a cane pot and He would eat. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu was eating clay. So His mother said, "Oh, why You are eating clay?" Then He said, "What is the difference between clay and this foodstuff? After all, everything is clay. It is produced from clay." This is criticizing the Mayavadi philosophy that everything is one. So His mother said, "My dear boy, it is very nice, everything is clay. But when you have to use for practical purpose... For example, if you want to keep water, so you have to keep water on the clay pot, not on the clay. So this specific form of the clay is required." Then He said, "Mother, you have taught Me very nice philosophy. I shall not eat any more clay." Sometimes He would sit in some nasty place where pots, clay pots... In India still, the system is, for cooking purpose, for the Deity, every day a new clay pot should be used. In Jagannath temple still it is. No used pot can be accepted. So after using, the rejected pots are stacked in some place. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu was sitting on the rejected pots. So His mother said, "My dear boy, You are sitting in this nasty place. Why?" He said, "Well, how you can say this is nasty place? These pots are very pure." Hm? [break]
Govinda: Tell him.
Tamala Krsna: That's all right. You know, we will need a harmonium. Should I wait till we get to India to purchase one?
Prabhupada: You haven't got in New York?
Tamala Krsna: They have one in New York temple. Los Angeles sankirtana needs a harmonium, a good harmonium. Maybe...
Prabhupada: Can you spare hundred dollars?
Tamala Krsna: Right now...
Prabhupada: You get hundred dollars; then we shall get.
Tamala Krsna: Okay. Wakim and Son?(?)
Prabhupada: No, from elsewhere.
Tamala Krsna: More mrdangas.
Prabhupada: These boys, Acyutananda, they do not write what they are doing, what they are not doing. I do not know whether they have made a plan to go away from the society and live independently.
Tamala Krsna: It seems like it is very difficult to go to India without you and still come back. It seems...
Prabhupada: No. When we go to India I shall go with you. Yes. We must go.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. We can go to Jagannatha Puri?
Prabhupada: Everywhere we shall go.
Tamala Krsna: So, what was the last thing? About the pot?
Govinda dasi: "Mother, these pots are very, are pure."
Prabhupada: He, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, taught that anything in relationship with Krsna, it is not impure. That was His purpose. "You should not treat these pots as impure. Ordinarily, when such pots are used for household purposes, that may be impure. But because in these pots prasadam were prepared, that is not impure." That was His... (pause)
Govinda dasi: I don't know what letters you want.
Prabhupada: There is one letter from... Let me see.
Govinda dasi: From Karandhara?
Prabhupada: No. We don't hear anything about, from Sivananda.
Tamala Krsna: In Berlin? Krsna dasa?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Is he in Berlin yet? Is Krsna dasa in Berlin? Krsna dasa.
Prabhupada: Krsna dasa and that German boy.
Prabhupada: Uttamasloka.
Prabhupada: When you go there.
Tamala Krsna: When we go to Berlin.
Prabhupada: (pause) Hm. Very good. So if we go, there will be good reception in Bombay.
Tamala Krsna: They will pay nice money to hear us?
Prabhupada: Yes. (reading letter:) "This can be made extensive by your team of followers from America arriving in..." They are greater. So Indian and American combined kirtana, oh, it will be very nice. Big kirtana, and every city will receive. And we shall preach that "Here is the common platform for everyone. There is no distinction of nation or religion or anything. Come to the platform." So the Mohammedans also will join. The government will appreciate that here is something secular, real secular; at the same time, God is there. Actually, it is that. All religious people, so-called religious, come here. And religion means this, to love, I mean to say, develop love of God. That is religion. What is this formularies? Simply formula that "I keep this, I copy that." That is not religion, simply by dressing in different way or sitting in a different way. Where is your understanding? You have no understanding of God. You simply formally attend some church or mosque or temple for some material benefit or for some, make some show, but where is your love of God? That is the test of religion, Bhagavata says. A religious person means he has got complete love of God. Then he is religious. All right. Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply wasting time. Bhagavata says, without developing this love of Godhead, if somebody is engaged in religious ritualistic performance, he's simply wasting his time. Srama... That particular word is used, srama eva hi kevalam. Srama means labor. Eva. Certainly, it is simply laboring. What is called? Labor of love? What is called?
Tamala Krsna: Labor of love.
Prabhupada: Yes. You love something and unnecessarily you labor. So religion means... This is religion, how to develop love of God. That is religion.
Tamala Krsna: Also there is a story in the Bhagavatam about the girls; they were offering to Lord Siva.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is another feature of Lord Caitanya. He taught in that instruction that there is no need of worshiping demigods. The incident is that in India the unmarried girls, they are encouraged to worship Lord Siva especially in the month of Vaisakha, March-April. And they will go to the Ganges side and prepare Sivalinga, and they'll... That means Siva will be pleased upon them to offer a husband like Lord Siva. Siva is very peaceful and very great devotee and most powerful at the same time. So that is the ideal husband. So they brought worshipable paraphernalia for worshiping Siva on the bank of the Ganges, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu, as naughty boy, approached them. "Oh, my dear sister, what you are doing? Oh, you have brought so many nice things. Give it to Me, and Lord Siva will be very much pleased. Oh, you are worshiping Durga? She is My maidservant and Lord Siva is a great devotee of Me. So you please offer Me all these things; they will be satisfied. You don't require to offer separately." By this, He wanted to instruct that worshiping the Supreme Lord is the appeasement of other demigods. You don't require to appease them separately. This instruction. Then some girls will hesitate. Then He will curse them that "You'll be married with an old man having seven children by his former wife." So they will be afraid, "Oh, maybe this boy is cursing..." Then out of fear they'll offer. Then He said, "Oh, you'll have a very nice young husband and you'll have seven children by him." In this way it was going on.
Tamala Krsna: Lord Caitanya is always doing this on a planet in the material, some material universe? These girls... All of these pastimes are eternal pastimes.
Prabhupada: Hm? No. These are not eternal pastimes. They are instructive particularly for this planet. In the eternal Vaikuntha, Lord Caitanya is engaged in chanting and dancing. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: Maybe you should, you must have your massage now. It's time.
Prabhupada: What is time?
Tamala Krsna: It is twenty-five minutes to uh... Maybe we can do a little more. Twenty-five minutes to twelve. Maybe a tiny bit more.
Prabhupada: You can do, you can ask me for fifteen minutes more.
Tamala Krsna: Okay. We also wish to show a scene of Lord Caitanya in school, learning. Some kind of incident about how nice a pupil He was so we can show people that He was the best student in the school.
Prabhupada: In India the system is in the school that the best student is appointed... What is called in English? The chief student is called "minor," or... "M," beginning.
Tamala Krsna: Monitor.
Prabhupada: Monitor, yes. Monitor. So He was monitor. That is the same. And He'll teach the students from grammar all Krsna. Dhatu. Dhatu. There is subject matter. Dhatu means verb. So He will ex-plain... dhatu means, when a dhatu is taken away a man is dead, and this dhatu is Krsna. So Krsna is the life. Without Krsna a man is dead." In this way He explained. Krsna explanation.
Tamala Krsna: How old was He?
Prabhupada: I may say, eight or ten years old.
Tamala Krsna: I think that what we will try to do is have Birbhadra come with us and he will play Lord Caitanya as a boy.
Prabhupada: Yes. That will be nice. And he is a very intelligent boy. He'll pick up.
Tamala Krsna: Are there any other, any other nice incidences between this time and when Lord Caitanya got married?
Prabhupada: In childhood there are many incidents. Another incident... That is a very important incident. When He was very small, crawling, so one brahmana came as their guest. And the brahmana, after preparing food, when he would offer to Krsna, this boy, a child, crawling and take the prasada and eat. And the brahmana will cry, "Oh, everything is spoiled. This boy, child has touched." Then His father would request him, "I should take care of Him. Please cook again and offer to Krsna." He said, "It is too late now. I'll eat some fruits." "No. Please cook." So twice He spoiled in that way. Then it became night, so all the ladies, they went to sleep with the child and locked the door of the room. And at night at about eleven o'clock the brahmana, when he was offering to Krsna, and the child came and took the prasadam. The brahmana again began to cry, "Oh, here again the child has come. How you are taking care?" And nobody heard him because everyone was sleeping. One letter is left here?
Govinda dasi: Ah, yes. I got that. I got that one out. It was from Bombay.
Prabhupada: Yes. Keep that. So then He appeared as... No. As boy He talked with him that "You are asking Me to come and take, and I am taking, and you are... Why you are howling like that? What can I do? You are asking Me." Then He showed him that He is Krsna Himself and warned him that "Don't disclose this fact. You are My devotee; therefore I disclose. So you were asking Me, so I came." Then the brahmana was so satisfied that "Krsna is here," and he did not disclose.
Tamala Krsna: Maybe we will show Lord Caitanya's marriage? Is that nice to show?
Prabhupada: Yes. Marriage. Yes, that is nice. The Indian system, marriage, is that the bridegroom goes to the house of the bride with procession, band, nicely decorated. They'll go... And He'll be married with first Laksmipriya, the first wife. There will be fireworks in the marriage ceremony. Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That will be very nice in this...
Prabhupada: Yes. You can make band, fireworks, decoration, and feasting...
Prabhupada: So many ladies, like that. That scene, I shall direct how to do it. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's father was not very rich man. So there was a big zamindar. He was devotee of Lord Krsna. So he had some affection for Caitanya. So when the marriage ceremony was being settled up, he said, "Oh, His marriage shall not be just like the brahmanas' marriage." Brahmana's wife, they are poor; so there is no expenditure. Some way or other, his marriage is done. But especially ksatriyas and the vaisyas, oh, they spend lakhs of rupees in marriage. So he said that "His marriage will not take place just like the brahmanas. His marriage will be royal marriage." So he spent all the money, and there was grand, everything grandeur.
Tamala Krsna: Then His wife, she died?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: So His mother was feeling...
Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to East Bengal for teaching, and actually, the girl felt too much separation, and she died. And figuratively it is used that the separation took the form of a serpent and bitten her and she died. And when He came back His mother requested that "You should marry for the second time," and He agreed. And so next marriage was with Visnupriya. In the first marriage, Laksmipriya, He used to see her when she was bathing in the Ganges ghata, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu desired that "I shall marry this girl." So His father sent one matchmaker. So when the matchmaker came to His mother that "Such and such brahmana..." I forget his name, but the name is there in the Caitanya-Bhagavata. "He desires that his daughter should be married with your son." And Sacidevi said, "Oh, my son is not yet grown up. He's just a student. How He can be married?" So she practically denied. And the matchmaker was going back, not very satisfied. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu was entering home. He saw the matchmaker and asked, "No, why did you come here?" "Yes, I came to propose Your marriage with such and such daughter, but Your mother is not willing." "Oh, mother is not willing? All right. You can go." Then when He came, entered home, He asked mother, "Mother, what did you do? That matchmaker was going very sorry. Why? What did you say?" The mother could understand that He is willing for the marriage. Then she called back the matchmaker. "Yes. I agree for the marriage." So the marriage ceremony... So Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave hint that "I want to marry that girl."
Tamala Krsna: Maybe we can do a nice scene with Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His friends' sojourn, I mean, they do have a nice time.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: They can do...
Prabhupada: It is simply adjustment. You can make very nice scene. Everything can be done nice, provided we arrange for that.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Nara-narayana, he is very good at building scenery. He can do all of that very quickly.
Prabhupada: So you'll play in the stage or make studio?
Tamala Krsna: Better that we play either in a big area so we can be right in the middle of people. People will be all around.
Prabhupada: Oh yes. That will be very nice.
Tamala Krsna: Because then we include them.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the system. That is called jatra in India. That is very good system. There is no stage, but by words and feelings everyone becomes absorbed, and chanting. So that will be very nice.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. We will have kirtana, maybe seven to ten kirtanas in the play, so everybody will be joining in.
Prabhupada: Yes. And they'll be asked to join.
Tamala Krsna: Oh yes.
Prabhupada: That will be very nice.
Tamala Krsna: Even maybe when Lord Caitanya says to Nityananda Prabhu and to...
Prabhupada: No, when singing is there, all the players and all the audience and everyone will sing. That will be very nice.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Even maybe Lord Caitanya says to Nityananda Prabhu, "Go to all the people and tell them about Krsna." So at that moment, we all, all the brahmacaris, we go into the people and we talk. Then we come back and tell Lord Caitanya. We can preach too.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Tamala Krsna: So it's, it's fifteen.
Prabhupada: All right.
Govinda dasi: Stop now? [break]
Tamala Krsna: Can you tell me something about Caitanya's initiation in Vaisnava faith? When He was initiated?
Prabhupada: After His father's death it is the custom amongst the Hindus to offer oblations at Gaya. There is a temple, Visnu temple. They offer prasadam. This is a Hindu custom. And with that prasadam the forefathers and the father is offered. So He went to perform that ceremony and by chance He met Isvara Puri and He was initiated by Isvara Puri. And after coming back from Gaya, He became very much emotional for Krsna, and sometimes people thought that He has become crazy. So His mother treated with some oil. But learned devotees, they said that He has got devotional emotion. So His initiation was in Gaya, when He went to perform that ceremony. So you can show the Gaya temple or some temple. And He's offering oblations, He's meeting His spiritual master, he's initiating. In this way you can make it two, three scenes. And He became emotional chanting Hare Krsna after initiation.
Tamala Krsna: The scenery will be very simple.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes. That I know. That's all right. There is no need of scenery.
Tamala Krsna: We can do it by pantomime and gestures.
Prabhupada: That's alright.
Tamala Krsna: That way, no matter where we are, people will understand.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is nice.
Tamala Krsna: He would swoon whenever He heard Krsna's name? He would be swooning? Lord Caitanya would faint?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Tamala Krsna: It says in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya that He revealed His heavenly powers to His associates.
Prabhupada: Yes. That was done in one day, sankirtana. He asked His devotees after sankirtana, "What do you want to eat?" So some of the devotees out of fun said that "We want mango." But that was not mango season. So He asked somebody, "All right. Bring some mango seed." So mango seed can be had in Bengal in everywhere because after eating mangoes they throw it, and gradually they become a small plant. So He brought some small plant mango and immediately sowed it on the courtyard, and immediately it became a big tree and full of mango.
Tamala Krsna: That would be a nice time for us to distribute prasada to all the people.
Prabhupada: Yes. If possible, mangoes.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes. From the tree. We'll have them hung on the tree and pick.
Prabhupada: Yes. You have got nice ideas. You can do very nicely. Yes. This is required, creative ideas.
Tamala Krsna: Maybe... About Lord Caitanya's civil disobedience. That is with the Kazi? His civil disobedience?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That is the Kazi.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: I read the introduction. There is a lot of material on it. Maybe some other things that we can...
Prabhupada: You can make scene that people, His disciples, are performing kirtana and one scene you can make Kazi, Muslim magistrate, is sitting, and the brahmanas, they come. "Sir, you are our protector. You are Kazi. You are magistrate. And this Nimai Pandita, young boy, He is creating so much disturbance." "What is that?" "He has begun this chanting Hare Krsna. This is not our Hindu religion. He is chanting so loudly. Now this is the time God is sleeping. So He'll be disturbed. So the whole society will be vanquished if God becomes angry. So He'll be disturbed." So Kazi... After all, Hindus are complaining. So Kazi said, "All right, I am taking steps." So he sent some officers. And they were playing mrdanga, and warned that "You cannot do this. You are disturbing here." That is going on still. Just like our Los Angeles, it is going on. In New York also, they complain to the Kazi, (laughs) police officer. But they could not do anything. So this complaint is going on since the inauguration of the sankirtana movement. So Kazi first of all warned. Then He did not care. Then the police also came and broke the mrdangas forcibly. Then Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "All right. We shall start thousands of men playing mrdanga, and we shall go to the house of Kazi. Let us see what can he do." So He went with many followers, and many followers playing mrdanga, and Kazi became afraid that "The people have become agitated." So he fled away. Then the people began to create disturbance in his garden. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Don't do this." Then Kazi came back, and Kazi was very submissive, and he said, "My dear Nimai, You are in relationship my nephew." Because Hindus and Muslims in those days, although they had different religions, they had no animosity. They were living very friendly. So the Muslim elderly man will be said by the Hindus as Chacha. And the Muslims they'll call Thakura Mosai. Like that. Friendly terms. They will invite. In this way they were living. So the Kazi said that "Your grandfather, I call him Chacha. He's elderly man. So Your mother is my sister. So You are my nephew. So do you think a nephew can be very angry upon his uncle?" And (chuckling) He said, "No, nephew must be obedient to the uncle. But do you think that uncle, when a nephew comes to his house, will not receive him?" "Oh yes. You are welcome. You are my nephew. You are my son." In this way the past incidences forgotten. Then they sat down. Then Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked him, "My dear uncle, what is your religion that you are killing father and mother?" "Why killing father and mother?" "Oh, you are killing cow, your mother. You are drinking milk. And oxen, he produces grains for you in the field; so he is your father. The father earns for the children, so he is producing grains. And mother gives milk; so cow is giving milk. So how is your religion that the father mother killing?" Then he could understand that Caitanya is marking on the cow killing by the Mohammedans. Then he said, "Oh, this cow killing is also in your Hindu religion." Then He said, "How is that, Hindu religion cow killing?" "Oh, there is cow sacrifice." Then He said that cow sacrifice is not like this. Cow sacrifice is giving new life to the old cow. That is cow sacrifi... It is not killing. And because at the present moment the brahmanas are not so qualified that they can give new life, therefore that sacrifice is now forbidden. He cited some verses from Vedic literature that cow sacrifice and horse sacrifice and to beget children by the younger brother of husband and sannyasa, and offering oblations with meat, these things are forbidden. So that is past. This is... Now it has no significance. In this way, both of them were scholars. Then they compromised. Agreement was the Kazi gave order everyone of his descendants, that "Nobody will check this sankirtana movement." So that order is being carried by their descendants still there in Nabadwip. The Kazi has got his tomb. He was a very big man.
Tamala Krsna: He became a devotee?
Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee means he was not converted, but he became very admirer of Caitanya and he ordered that "Caitanya can perform sankirtana anywhere. Nobody shall check." So that order is still being carried out.
Tamala Krsna: We can do this in the dark with candles. Men playing drums, some people holding candles, marching to his house.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: And it will look very...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Maybe... Can we show him after Lord Caitanya (and) he talk, they both come out and everyone has kirtana or is this not correct?
Prabhupada: No, you can do that. Kirtana, that's all right.
Tamala Krsna: I mean the Kazi, he can be in the kirtana?
Prabhupada: Yes. Out of jubilation, yes. That's all right.
Govinda dasi: Did he stop this cow killing thereafter? After talking with Caitanya Mahaprabhu?
Prabhupada: No. Because that is their religious ceremony. Caitanya simply criticized their process, but he replied that "In Your Vedic there is cow sacrifice." Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, "That sacrifice is not killing. That's giving new life." So that much.
Tamala Krsna: Madhudvisa, he will play the Kazi.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Tamala Krsna: Madhudvisa...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Tamala Krsna: He will play the Kazi 'cause he is very... You see? So... So now, in the introduction it says Lord Caitanya was realizing how this sectarianism amongst all the religions was very bad, and so He decided to do away with all material... Well, He could not be... He was not material, but He decided to take sannyasa at this time.
Prabhupada: Sannyasi... Sannyasa reason was different. There was some misunderstanding between His students and... They were of same age. Because Nimai Pandita was very intelligent boy, so He was teaching other boys practically of the same age. So there was some misunderstanding and the students wanted to retaliate. He went to strike them with a stick, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. And because they're of the same age they made a conference, "Oh, this Nimai Pandita has become very big man. He wants to strike us. Next time if He does so, then we shall also strike Him." Then He thought that "In this householder's position I cannot preach. I must take sannyasa. Otherwise they will not respect Me." That is the system in India. A sannyasi in this dress, whatever rascal he may be, he is offered immediately all respect. That is the system in India. So therefore He took sannyasa early age, 24 years, 24 years of age.
Tamala Krsna: So we can show His mother and His wife crying because He is taking sannyasa. They see Him in His...
Prabhupada: No, no. He took sannyasa by previous arrangement. One day He went away from home, accompanied by Murari and Lord Nityananda, and went to Katwa. There was one Mayavadi sannyasi, Kesava Bharati, and He took sannyasa from him. And then He was, in emotion He was going to Vrndavana, but He was misled by Nityananda, and He was brought to the home of Advaita, and Advaita arranged to bring His mother to see Him for the last. So His mother and many people from Nabadwip came to Sant... Advaita's house was in Santipur. So there was, for a few days, Caitanya Mahaprabhu stayed there, and sankirtana and prasada distribution was going on. And His mother feeling, feeling very well... But Caitanya Mahaprabhu saw that "My mother is not allowing Me to go. That is not good." So He requested, "Mother, I have taken sannyasi. If I go on feasting like this with mother, what people will say? So you give Me permission to go." So mother said, "Yes, my dear boy. You have taken sannyasi. But anyway You are happy. That is my happiness. But my only request is that You make Your headquarters at Jagannatha Puri. Because people from Nabadwip generally go there, so I shall get at least Your news. That is my last desire." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Yes. I shall make My headquarters in Puri." So people were coming and going. So His mother was getting news of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. That was then last days. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu, after that incident, never met, either His mother... And there was no question of meeting with wife.
Tamala Krsna: No. So Janaki, she can play the mother. She is...
Prabhupada: Yes. And you can show another scene that His wife, Visnupriya, she was chanting Hare Krsna, and one round finished, she counted it with one grain of rice. One round finished, one grain rice. So as many rounds finished, she'll eat only so much rice. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: Wow. He did that?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: He did that all the time?
Prabhupada: Yes. That was... From 16 years till death she was doing that.
Tamala Krsna: I thought He sometimes would eat a room full of food?
Prabhupada: What?
Tamala Krsna: Didn't sometimes He eat a lot of food?
Prabhupada: Who?
Prabhupada: Yes. And His mother would prepare nice dishes and offer to Visnu and think, "Oh, this nice prasadam, I could offer my son Caitanya Mahaprabhu..., Nimai, but He is..." She would cry. She was crying, "Oh, the boy is no longer here." Then, after some time, she would see the whole finished, whole prasadam. "What happened? I did not offer to Visnu Deity? I simply brought the empty pot? Maybe." Then again she goes to the kitchen, and... "There is also nothing." Then again cook. "Perhaps I have forgotten to cook even, thinking of Caitanya." Then again she'll offer. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu sent news by some men that "Inform mother that one day she was thinking like that. So I went there. I ate everything, and she saw everything empty. She'll remember. Then again she cooked. And mother will feel happy. "Oh, then Nimai came and did it. Oh, it is very nice." So this scene is very pathetic.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. But how will we make... We will show Him take the food while her... How will we show this? How will we produce this? That she is sitting there, offering the food...
Prabhupada: No. You don't offer. Simply offering, and you'll simply play, "Where is the food?" That way.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Not real food.
Prabhupada: No. Or... Real food is not required. Simply that explain it. Or you can do one thing. You can offer real food. And since she will be in devotion, one may take the foodstuff and distribute to the audience and keep it. That will be also nice.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Maybe we can distribute prasada twice in the play.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Even just to... Maybe that plate we'll just give to a few people nearby.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break]
Tamala Krsna: ...first speak in detail about Thakura Haridasa's disappearance. So tell me maybe how you want it to be performed.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakura Haridasa was living in a cottage which was... Just like I am living here, and the garage site a little far off, Haridasa was living a little distance. So when Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to go to the sea for taking bath, He every day, every morning He used to go to Haridasa Thakura and taking his informa..., "Haridasa, what you are doing?" Because Haridasa was Mohammedan by birth, so out of his meekness he did not go to the temple. But in those... Especially in those days they were very strict. They do not allow anyone except Hindus to enter the temple. Nowadays, of course, there is law. If somebody is, actually has come to the Hindu way of life, he's allowed. Our Jayagovinda and others were allowed to see Jagannatha temple. But in those days there were no such system and Haridasa out of his own accord, he did not want to disturb But Lord Caitanya, God Himself, used to come to see him every day. So one day when Caitanya came, he looked little bit depressed. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked him, "Haridasa, you do not look very well today. What is the matter?" "Sir, I'm not very feeling well. And because I do not feel well, I could not finished my chanting." He was chanting daily 300,000 times. "So I could not finish my chanting." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "All right. You are growing old. You may not follow the rules now strictly. You can make it later." Haridasa Thakura said, "No, Sir, so long my life is there I shall try to follow. When the life is over, that is different thing. But I have got one desire if You fulfill." "What is that?" "Now I can understand that You will also leave this world very soon. So I cannot tolerate that. So best thing is that before You'll go, I go. And my another request is that You shall stand before me, and I shall leave this body." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Oh, if that is your desire, that will be all right. That is not difficult." So next day, when Caitanya Mahaprabhu came, Haridasa Thakura said, "Sir, today I wish to leave. So You please stand before me." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu also could understand that he's leaving. So He asked His devotees to chant Hare Krsna, and in the presence of Caitanya Mahaprabhu he left. Then Caitanya Mahaprabhu took this body, and Himself He went... He carried the body. He was very stout and strong. And He was dancing and... Then He went to the seaside, and He bathed the body, and in His own hands He buried Caitanya, uh, Haridasa Thakura's body within the sand. So that burial place is still there in Puri, Haridasa Thakura's samadhi. Then He personally went to the shopkeepers and begged prasadam. "You give Me some prasadam." All people gave Him so many things. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was so well-known. So He asked all the devotees to take prasadam after the burial ceremony was over. In this way Haridasa Thakura's... Niryana. This is called departure of Haridasa Thakura. That is stated in Caitanya-caritamrta.
Tamala Krsna: I noticed that someone in the temple was reading a book, The Divine Name.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: And it talks about this. Should I look at that book or not at all?
Prabhupada: Which book?
Tamala Krsna: It's called The Divine Name. It is by one of your Godbrothers.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Tamala Krsna: Is it all right to read it?
Prabhupada: Oh yes. There are some discrepancies, but it is, on the whole, it is nice. Yes. There is... Haridasa Thakura's niryana is stated there? Yes. Raghava Caitanya. Yes, he was my Godbrother. You have secured that book?
Prabhupada: Oh. That's good. That's nice.
Tamala Krsna: There's a scene about Lord Caitanya embracing the leper Vasudeva.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Is that a nice scene to perform?
Prabhupada: Yes. While He was traveling in South India, in a village that leper Vasudeva, he was coming to see Caitanya from a very distant place. And then when he came to see Him, Caitanya Mahaprabhu had already left. So he was so sorry and crying. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu came back and embraced him and he was cured. These are some of the miracles.
Tamala Krsna: In the introduction to the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, up until the age of 31 there is description, but then there is very little description from the age of 31 to Lord Caitanya's disappearance. Maybe you can tell me as much as you can of what happened...
Prabhupada: He left His home at the age of 24 years. Then He made His headquarter in Jagannatha Puri. For six years He traveled all over India. That means up to thirty years. And after that He remained in Jagannatha Puri for 18 years. He was chanting in the evening in the Jagannatha temple, and taking bath. And during this car festival all devotees, especially from Bengal, would go there and live there for four months. And after seeing the Rathayatra ceremony, they will remain there for four months. Then they will come back. This was going on year after year.
Tamala Krsna: Are there any nice stories you can tell me so that I can... See, I need some stories from that part of His life to show in the play how He... Some incidents, memorable, you know, that...
Prabhupada: There were not many. The Rathayatra is very nice. He was chanting with a group of devotees, and while the car festival is going on. And sometimes car used to stop. It still stops. That is the fashion of Jagannatha. And nobody could, even an elephant could not draw it. Then Caitanya Mahaprabhu will say, "All right, come on." So He would push it with His head and it will go on.
Tamala Krsna: What did the people say when they saw that?
Prabhupada: Then... That was... Caitanya Mahaprabhu already adored, He was. So, there is... Rathayatra car festival, and Gundica-marjana. Gundica-marjana. Before the Rathayatra festival, the system is Jagannatha goes from the temple to another place about two miles away. There is a big temple there also which is called Jagannatha Aunt's(?) house, Mahisi badi. So He stays there for eight days. Just like we make program in San Francisco to reside on seaside. So that temple was to be washed. Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to do it by His personal supervision. So all the devotees... And He will check how much dust you have recovered, and then you shall be rewarded. Otherwise, it should be understood that you have not labored nicely. (chuckles) So He'll sweep over the whole temple nicely and wash the ceilings and walls and everything so clearly. And He'll see in this way if there is any sand. If there is, "Oh, it is not washed." That means He would engage everyone. Then after washing, then call for prasadam and distribute Himself. This is called Gundica-marjana. Actually, whatever He was doing, they were washing, "Hare Krsna Hare Krsna," chanting. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: He used to eat a lot of food?
Prabhupada: Yes. Not always. But people used to present some foodstuffs. Especially when the devotees would come from Bengal side, somebody is bringing something, somebody is... Whatever Caitanya Mahaprabhu likes. And they will prepare the whole year nice foodstuffs. That is, what is called, preserved food. You can keep it for days together. So His personal assistant was Govinda, and everyone will, I mean to say, offer Govinda, "Please offer this food to Prabhu." And Govinda will keep. And everyone is anxious whether his goods are taken. So he was inquiring Govinda, "Has Mahaprabhu has taken my food?" What can he say? "Yes, yes, yes, yes." But it is stacked in the store. So one day Caitanya Mahaprabhu He said that... He was Godbrother also, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He could talk with Him freely. He was not disciple. So "Guru Maharaja sent me to serve You, and now the result is that for You I have to speak only lies." "What is that? You are speaking lies for Me?" "Yes. Why not? What can I do?" "Now, what is the matter?" "Now, Your devotees give me so many things for eating and just lying stacked. And they inquire and I say 'Yes, yes. He has taken.' So this is my business, telling lie." So then Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "All right. Bring something. I shall eat." So he brought one bag and He ate everything. "Bring next." In this way the whole stack, about 100 men's foodstuff, He ate. Then He asked him, "Bring more." "Now the bags are lying only. If You want to eat, (chuckling) You can eat." "All right. Stop." So in half an hour, one hour, He ate all the 100 men's stock. You see. This is also another miracle. He finished the whole stock to save him from speaking lies.
Tamala Krsna: These are the kind of things that will be very nice to present. Those are the things that I would like to do, because people will...
Prabhupada: Another incident during Puri... Ramananda Raya, he was a great devotee. So his younger brother, he was engaged in government service, Maharaja Prataparudra's service. But he was a karmi and a rich man. So he misappropriated some money for sense gratification from the treasury. So this was... And he had some, what is called, competition, or rivalry, between the king's son and himself. The king's son did not like him, so he was trying to put him in some difficulty. This man... His name is... He's Ramananda Raya's brother. His name is there. I can find out. So he found out some fault with him and informed his father that "Your such and such person has doing like this. He has misappropriated the money. I paid him so much money for purchasing horse, and he has purchased horse less price. He was charged so much." "Oh," the king said, "Oh, how is that? He cannot do that. Realize that money." So he got some clue. So he said that "You must pay. This is not the right price. The state cannot accept at high price this kind of horses." So he said, "All right. I shall sell somewhere and repay the price." Then there was some argument. He said, "Why you have charged so much for this horse? This is not a very good horse." He said, "Yes, it is good horse. My horse does not look like this." That man, that king's son was looking like this. So he criticized him, so he became more angry. Because you know, everyone, that a horse who looks down like this, that is bad(?) horse. Or looking like this, he's not first-class horse. Do you know that? (laughter) Horse, like this, kat, kat, kat, kat, that is first-class horse. And if horse goes like this, that is not good horse. So he criticized him, and he became angry, and he complained to his father that he's not paying. Rather, he's criticizing me. And he said, "All right. Press him. He'll pay." So the... In those days the highest punishment was cange utthana. Cange utthana means a platform is made very high and swords are put in the, this way. And one man is thrown on the swords. That is called cange utthana. So the arrangement was to punish him like that. So when the arrangement was made, everyone became frightened that "This man will be killed." So they presented the fact to Caitanya Mahaprabhu that "He is Your devotee. He has served so much. Now he is in danger. If You kindly send some note to the king, he is also great admirer, then he may save his life." Caitanya Mahaprabhu refused, "Oh, he has misappropriated state's money, and you want Me to approach a pound-shilling man, king." He was not seeing even the king. "Oh, this is not possible for him. Let him be punished. He has taken money from the state. I don't wish to interfere." Then nobody could request him anything. So some way or other, the news approached the king, and the king was astonished, "Oh, why this arrangement was made for killing him? I never ordered. Stop him." Then he sent his special messenger, that, "Stop this and call him. What is the matter?" Then he said everything, that, "Your son, I could not pay his money. He wanted money, and he made this arrangement." So, "Why did you take money in this way? Do you think your salary is not sufficient to provide you? All right. Don't do this. All right, I excuse. And I increase your salary double. Don't do this again." So was he saved in his life, his salary was increased. And he was going to be killed. Although Caitanya Mahaprabhu never desired, but these things happened. So?
Tamala Krsna: If you can just tell me what you, the best way to have a nice scene of Jagai and Madhai.
Prabhupada: The first scene should be that Nityananda Prabhu and Haridasa Thakura. They were ordered by Caitanya Mahaprabhu to go every day to, from one neighborhood to another and preach. So one day when they came out they saw at a distant place a crowd. So you have to make scene that a crowded place and these two brothers, Jagai and Madhai, they have pickpocketed somebody and... Because they were debauches, so there was some howling and crowds. Yes. So Nityananda Prabhu inquired, and people said that "These two brothers, they're born of a very respectable family, but they have now become debauches." So Nityananda Prabhu, "Oh, they are so fallen? So best thing is to convert them first. Then Lord Caitanya's name will be glorious that He has delivered such rascals." So He went there to save. Then he said, "Who are you?" As soon as they came in, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, chanting, and these brothers said, "Oh, who are you?" "Oh, we are Nityananda, and he is Haridasa. We are preaching. You also join with us." So, "Oh get out! Hare Krsna, your damn Hare Krsna. Get out!" (chuckles) So Haridasa Thakura was old man, and he was afraid. But Nityananda was young man so He fled away. Haridasa Thakura could not go so swift. He said, "My dear Nityananda, I think today my life is at risk." So anyway, then after they were going away, the crowd dispersed and the brothers were talking. So one brother was talking to the other, "Jagai, I think that these people very nicely sing. Don't you hear?" "Oh! You are going to be a sankirtana man?" "No, no, no! I am not going to be sankirtana man. Just I am talking about it." So this was their beginning appreciation. Then next day, again in the same place, Nityananda came, and He requested, "My dear brothers, you chant Hare Krsna." So the Madhai, no Jagai, Jagai was so angry. They were drinking. So here you drink in bottles. They drink in earthen pot. So there was earthen pot. He hurled against His head and there was blood oozing out. So the other brother, Madhai said, "Oh, what you are doing? What you are doing? He's innocent." This news was reached to Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very much angry. He came, "Bring My cakra. I shall kill these rascals immediately." He became so angry. Then Nityananda Prabhu implored, "My dear brother, why You are very angry? They are the sample of this age. So if You become angry, then whom we are going to deliver? The whole population is full of like Jagai and Madhai. So our preaching is for the most fallen. Why do You remember, why do You forget this? Don't be angry." Then both the brothers, they fell on the feet of Nityananda. "Please forgive us. We have done wrong. You are so nice people. You are chanting Hare Krsna so innocent, and we are so..." This is the effect of seeing a pure devotee. Heart becomes soft. This is the association, effect of association. So they surrendered. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Yes, I will accept you. I don't care for your past deeds, but you have to agree that no more this nonsense." That means before initiation one might have done all nonsense things. That doesn't matter. That is not disqualification. But after initiation one should not. Then his life is changed immediately by this Hare Krsna movement. This is the instruction of Jagai-Madhai. So there were only two Jagai-Madhais, but you'll meet hundreds of Jagai-Madhais. So... But they can be delivered. There is no question that in their past life they had been sinful. Simply they have to agree that "No more this nonsense." Therefore I have kept these restrictions, these four restrictions. Anyone who adopts this life and initiated, and follows these restrictions, then he begins a new life.
Tamala Krsna: How can we show... We can't throw a pot at someone's head every night we perform this. It's not feasible to throw something at someone's head each time we do this.
Prabhupada: You do? No? No, no. You just make a...like this. That's all. And Nityananda may be smearing his head and found some blood. In this way you can do like that. After all, it is show.
Tamala Krsna: What we can do is make the two brothers maybe attack one of the visitors who are watching it.
Prabhupada: Just like in play they keep some sponge with red color and somebody stabs, "Oohh!" and he squeezes. (laughter) In that way you can do it like that. After all, it is play. That's all. This is very important scene, Jagai-Madhai uddhara. Yes. You have to set very nicely.
Tamala Krsna: Okay. We'll go now.
Prabhupada: No. You just have arati? Arati?
Prabhupada: And that Krsna-kirtana. This... Let them hear. (end)
September

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