720426SB.TOK
Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.10

Tokyo, April 26, 1972
Pradyumna: "...abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail. Nor is there any other influence in the matter of goodness. There is no predominant..."
Prabhupada: Nor there is...? Nor there is...?
Pradyumna: "Nor is there any of their influence in the matter of goodness."
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Pradyumna: "There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy that cannot enter in that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees."
Prabhupada: So this is the description, beginning, just to get an idea of the spiritual world. Unless we go there... Just like we have come to Japan. We are getting direct experience. But before coming here, from books and literature and mapsit is an examplewe can get some information, what is Japan. Similarly, the spiritual world, what is that spiritual world, in other places, in Upanisad also describes. In the Bhagavad-gita also, this description, na tad bhasayate suryo na candro na pavakah [Bg. 15.6]. There is no need of sunlight, moonlight, what to speak of the stars, neither na pavakah, neither electricity. Na tad bhasayate suryo na candro na pavakah. Here in this material world we cannot see things without sunlight, moonlight or electricity. We are proud of our eyes, but as soon as there is no light... Now there is sunlight; we can see very nicely. The spiritual world is not like that. There is no need of sunlight, moonlight or electricity. The first impression is there in the Bhagavad-gita. Similarly here also, pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh sattvam ca misram na ca kala-vikramah, na..., na pravartate. What is the meaning?
Pradyumna: Na pravartate? "Prevail."
Prabhupada: Not prevail. Does not prevail. What is that? Here there are three material modes of nature, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna: goodness, passion, and ignorance. These things are not there. Here the sattva-guna, the goodness is also polluted, misram. Here... Just like sometimes a brahmana, born of a brahmana family, very first class, all, everything, but he is working as a sudra, not pure. There is mixture. Therefore it is said, sattvam ca misram. Sattvam ca misram. Misram means sometimes there is... Because all qualities of the material nature is helping me to misidentify my position. In the lower stage... Just like animals, the dog. In the lower stage of tamo-guna, unnecessarily, "Gow gow! Why you have come here. Why you are coming?" You see? So this is the lowest stage of tamo-guna. There is no offense, still he will disturb people. So tamo-guna is lowest stage. Little more, passion, rajo-guna: "Beware of the dogs." He does not make "Gow! Gow!" but he points out "Here is dog. Please don't come." Similarly, sattva-guna also: "I am Mr. Such and such. You cannot see without engagement." So these things are going on. The influence of three modes of material nature.
So these things are not there. There they do not require to keep a dog, neither there is dog. You see? Just to make an idea what is Vaikunthaloka. Because vaikuntha means without anxiety. Vaikuntha. Kuntha means anxiety, and vaikuntha means without anxiety. So if you have no anxiety, what is the use of keeping dog for making "Gow! Gow!"? You have no anxiety. Just like in Japan the practice is... Generally they say that there is no thief.
Sudama: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupada: So actually if there is no thief, where is the cause of anxiety? If there is no burglar, thieves, rogues. It is the duty actually. It is the duty of the king to see that there should be no thieves. People should be anxiety-free. That is nice government. Yudhisthira Maharaja, when he was ruling, there was not even scorching heat. People were so anxiety-free. You see? Due to pious activities of Maharaja Yudhisthira, there was no severe cold or scorching heat, no dangerous disease, infection. They were all free from all this. It can be possible if there is good government. So here is the idea. Pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh sattvam ca misram na ca kala-vikramah. Kala-vikramah. Here we are governed by the stringent laws of time. I am getting old. Kala-vikramah. The body is getting seventy-six years. This means time has eaten up my duration of life seventy-six years, influence of time. You cannot avoid it. Kala-vikramah. Na yatra maya. Maya, illusion. Either fixed-up idea. Everyone knows Lord Visnu or Krsna as the Supreme Personality, and they are all happy by serving the Lord. Everyone is engaged. Surasurarcitah anuvratah. They are not..., they have no revolutionary spirit: "Oh, why shall I serve You? I am also God." This is revolutionary. These things are not there. The so-called rascal declaring oneself that "I am God," no. Anuvrata. Everyone is following: "Oh, here is Lord." In the Vaikuntha planets there is very great respectful consciousness, "Here is Lord." But in Vrndavana, there is no such respectful consciousness, Krsna, and the cowherds boys, gopis, but their love is very, very intense. Out of love, they cannot disobey Krsna. Here in the Vaikuntha, out of respect, they cannot disobey. In the Vrndavana, Goloka Vrndavana, they cannot think of denying anything to Krsna. Krsna is so much lovable. They can give anything. There is no so respectful because they do not know whether Krsna is God or not. They know, "Krsna is like us, one of us." But their respect and love is so intense that without Krsna they become lifeless. There is no life.
So here we are defying Krsna, defying God. We are declaring falsely, "I am God. You are God. Why you are searching God? These gods are loitering in the street. You just try to serve them. Why you are searching in the temple?" These things are kala-vikramah, influence of time; maya, illusion; and so many things. These things are absent. So what is the purport? Just see. And surasurarcitah. There, there is no more distinction between sura and asura. Here, asuras, they are not devotees. They deny. So asura, how the asura goes there? Asura does not go there as asura, but he goes there as devotee. Just like Prahlada Maharaja. He is the son of an asura, Hiranyakasipu. Therefore he is classified asura, son of asura. But this asura quality is not more existing there, although he is promoted. In other words, when one is transferred to the Vaikuntha world there is no such distinction between sura and asura.
Why there should be? Everyone is engaged in Krsna's service. So in other words, here also, anyone who is engaged in Krsna's service, it doesn't matter whether he is born in mleccha family, yavana family or Muslim family or Hindu family or brahmana family. These distinctions are completely abolished because the real business... Everyone is mukta, liberated. He is engaged in real business, Krsna's service. What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The kingdom of God or the atmosphere of Vaikuntha nature, which is called the tripad-vibhuti, is three times bigger than the material universes and is described here as also in the Bhagavad-gita, in a nutshell. This universe, containing billions of stars and planets, is one of the billions of such universes clustered together within the compass of mahat-tattva. And all these millions and billions of universes combined together constitute only one-fourth of the magnitude of the whole creation of the Lord. There is the spiritual sky also. Beyond this sky the spiritual planets are there under the names of Vaikuntha, and all of them constitute three-fourths of the entire creation of the Lord. God's creations are always innumerable. Even leaves of a tree cannot be counted by a man, nor the hairs on his head. However, foolish men are puffed up with the idea of becoming God himself, although unable to create a hair of their own bodies."
Prabhupada: So I have protested this false God consciousness in all my purports. That is my business, to punish all these rascals. You see? I become very much angry, anyone says before me, "I am God, he is God, everyone..." I cannot control myself. (laughter) Yes. I am so obstinate enemy of these rascals. I want to kick them on their face, but it is incivility. It becomes... But I want to kick them. It will be my pleasure. Never mind I go to hell. Go on.
Pradyumna: "Man may discover so many wonderful vehicles of journey, but even if he reaches the moon by his much advertised spacecraft, he cannot remain there. The sane man, therefore, without being puffed up as if he were the god of the universe, abides by the instructions of the Vedic literature, the easiest way to acquire knowledge in transcendence. So let us know through the authority of Srimad-Bhagavatam of the nature and the constitution of the transcendental world beyond the material sky. In that sky the material qualities..."
Prabhupada: They are going to different planets... They cannot go. Suppose if they are going: so taking so much trouble, expending so much money, they are trying to study. But we study within this room, even up to Vaikuntha planet. Huh? These rascals are taking so much trouble and still unsuccessful. And we are getting all clear idea. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]. That is the perfection of Vedic literature. In remote jungle they are sitting. They are enjoying spiritual atmosphere and getting all information from the Vedic literature. How much, I mean to say, fortunate we are, those who have taken shelter of this Vedic literature. We get all information. Is there any doubt? So why should we take so much trouble? Chant Hare Krsna, take information, be prepared, and at the time of death, think of Krsna. Immediately transferred within a second. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Within a second, transferred. Because spirit soul is finer than the mind. So mind can be transferred immediately within a second millions of miles away. So how much speed is there for spirit soul, you can imagine. Mind, you can immediately... You are sitting here. Immediately you can transfer mind, Bombay. You are seeing. The kirtana is going on. It is practical. Manaso vayuh. Vayu, the velocity of the air, and finer than the... Because air is gross matter and mind is subtle matter, so the speed of mind is far greater than the velocity of air. Air, the velocity of air is two thousand miles or per... Two hundred miles, like that?
Syamasundara: Of light? Velocity of light?
Prabhupada: Light or air. What is the?
Syamasundara: Velocity of light is 5,280 miles per second.
Prabhupada: Just see. Light. Light is subtler than air. Light is fire. Light is electricity. Electricity is produced by air. So first gross matterthis earth. And subtler than earth is water, and subtler than water is the air? No. Subtler than water is fire. So electricity, you told me the velocity of electricity?
Syamasundara: Uh, yes. 428,000 miles per second.
Prabhupada: Per second. So this is the third subtlement. The fourth subtlement matter is air. The air must be still greater velocity. And air, from air... Just like we get radio message. In one second, one sound rotates seven times. Is it not?
Syamasundara: Speed of light. It goes, I think...
Prabhupada: Not speed of... Sound. You say "Krsna." This word, immediately within a second, seven times. And therefore we quickly capture. We have got a machine. So therefore it is still speedy, sound. Sound is sky. So subtler than the sound is the mind. Then you can imagine how much speedy is mind, how many millions of miles you can go. And subtler than the mind is soul. So just imagine how quickly the soul can be transferred to the other world, other planet. You can transfer by yogic principle. So it is said, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. The most subtler. And in the spiritual world that is completely spiritual. There is no tinge or contamination of anything of this material embarrassment. Ahaituky apratihata. Then, what is...?
Pradyumna: "In that sky the material qualities, especially the modes of ignorance and passion, are completely absent. The mode of ignorance influences a living entity to the habit of lust and hankering. And this means that in the Vaikunthalokas the living entities are free from these two things. As confirmed..."
Prabhupada: Lust and anger. These two things completely... Then?
Pradyumna: "As confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, in the brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20] stage of life one becomes free from hankering and lamentation. Therefore the conclusion is that the inhabitants of the Vaikuntha planets are all brahma-bhuta living entities, as distinguished from the mundane creatures who are all compact in hankering and lamentation. When one is not in the modes of ignorance and passion, one is supposed to be situated in the mode of goodness in the material world. Goodness in the material world also at times becomes contaminated with touches of the mode of passion and ignorance. In the Vaikunthaloka it is unalloyed goodness only. The whole situation there is one of freedom from the illusory manifestation of the external energy. Although the illusory energy is also a part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, still, illusory energy is differentiated from the Lord. The illusory energy is not, however, false, as claimed by the monist philosophers. The rope accepted as a snake may be an illusion to a particular person, but the rope is a fact, and the snake is also a fact. The illusion of water on the hot desert may be an illusion for the ignorant animal searching out water in the desert. But the desert and water are actual facts. Therefore the material creation of the Lord may be an illusion to the nondevotee class of men, but to a devotee, even the material creation of the Lord is a fact, as the manifestation of His external energy. But this energy of the Lord is not all. The Lord has His internal energy also, which has another creation known to be the Vaikunthalokas, where there is no ignorance, no passion, no illusion, and no past and present. With a poor fund of knowledge one may be unable to understand the existence of such things as the Vaikuntha atmosphere, but that does not nullify its existence. A spacecraft cannot reach these planets does not mean that there are no such planets, for they are described in the revealed scriptures. As quoted by Srila Jiva Gosvami, we can know from the Narada-pancaratra that the transcendental world or Vaikuntha atmosphere is enriched with transcendental qualities. These transcendental qualities, as revealed through the devotional service of the Lord, are distinct from the mundane qualities of ignorance, passion, and goodness. Such qualities are nonattainable by the nondevotee class of men. In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God's creation there is the three-fourths part manifestation. The marginal line between..."
Prabhupada: Just see how we are getting information about the space. Just see. Beyond this material sky this space is... Information of the space is there. They cannot have any information of this material space, what to speak of the spiritual space. How much our knowledge is perfect. Either we are crazy, all thinking, or we are in a very secure position than all these rascals. What do you think? Clear conception of everything. Go on.
Pradyumna: "The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the Viraja River. And beyond the Viraja, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths part manifestation of God's creation. This part is eternal, everlasting, without any deterioration, and unlimited, and contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions. In the Sankhya-kaumudi it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities are eternally associated without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity there. In the Agama Puranas also the transcendental abode is described as follows. The associated members there are free to go everywhere within the creation of the Lord, and there is no limit to such creation, particularly in the region of the three-fourths magnitude. Since the nature of that region is unlimited, there is no history of such association, nor is there end of it. The conclusion may be drawn that because of the complete absence of the mundane qualities of ignorance and passion, there is no question of creation nor of annihilation. In the material world everything is created and everything is annihilated, and the duration of life between the creation and annihilation is temporary. In the transcendental realm, there is no creation and no destruction, and thus the duration of life is eternal unlimitedly. In other words, everything in the transcendental world is everlasting, full of knowledge and bliss without any deterioration. Since there is no deterioration, there is no past, present and future in the estimation of time. It is clearly stated in this verse that the influence of time is conspicuous by its absence. The whole material existence is manifested by actions and reactions of elements which make up the influence of time prominent in the matter of past, present and future. There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there. So the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation or the six material changes are nonexistent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord without any illusion as experienced here in the material world. The whole Vaikuntha existence proclaims that everyone there is a follower of the Lord. The Lord is the chief leader there without any competition of leadership, and the people in general are all followers of the Lord. It is confirmed in the Vedas therefore that the Lord is the chief leader and all other living entities are subordinate to Him."
Prabhupada: Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13).
Pradyumna: "It is confirmed in the Vedas therefore that the Lord is the chief leader and all other living entities are subordinate to Him as only the Lord..."
Prabhupada: So we have accepted the original leader, Krsna. Why should we follow the nonsense leader who has no perfect knowledge? We have accepted the supreme leader. That is our advantage. Then?
Pradyumna: "...as only the Lord satisfies all the needs of all other living entities."
Prabhupada: And He is so able leader that He supplies everything. He is not a false leader. Then?
Pradyumna: That is the end of the purport.
Prabhupada: That's all. So stick to this leader. Don't deviate. That's all.
Devotee: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. (end)

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