Prabhupada: Here Jagannatha Swami is the same. So it is desired that the Swami should be in a very nicer place, that there is no deriding of the Swami, the exaltation of the Swami. So therefore the rascal does not know what is analogy. Analogy does not mean dis-similar.
Prabhupada: That he does not know.
Prabhupada: Yes. Swami is the same. If I speak to my swami, husband, "Kindly you come to this better seat," there is no deridation.
Tamala Krsna: You are not putting yourself on that higher seat. You are putting Lord Jagannatha there.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore that analogy is failure.
Tamala Krsna: I thought you would like to see that brochure from those rascals. I mean, I brought it to your attention because I knew that you were here.(?)
Prabhupada: [break] ...the whole world much nicer building, palaces, and...
Prabhupada: Yes, this...
Prabhupada: London, Bhaktivedanta Manor, they are nicer buildings. But if you cannot open these doors of the building, oh, immediately collapse...
Prabhupada: You have to remain packed up.
Prabhupada: Detroit and London. Oh, you cannot open.
Prabhupada: Not so much. When I was there it was very clear.
Tamala Krsna: You picked a good time of the year. London and Paris at the right time is very good. Say June, May, June, July. But nine months or eight months of the year, it becomes difficult.
Prabhupada: In Bombay especially, advantages. The whole side, green. Therefore it keeps the atmosphere mild. Simply in Bombay. Not in this Bombay Province, Maharashtra. [break] Up to the end of the day, here is air and light. Up to the end. Good advantage.
Prabhupada: You can keep some asana like this.
Indian man: (recites Sanskrit slokas)
Prabhupada: Bring in the asana. (Hindi with guest) [break] If you like, you can make this bed this size, not my size.
Prabhupada: Now you combine together and present this Krsna consciousness throughout the whole world. (Hindi) You have been acquainted with the other scientists?
Dr. Sharma: Yes, I have met Swami Madhava dasa and his colleague, and I've gone through that article recently that they sent me about creation coming out of chaos. It is a very wonderful written article. They will be a real eye-opener for the scientists really. And I understand that you have a big plan to start a research institute with the help of the scientists. This will be really something that...
Prabhupada: All Indian scientists should join.
Dr. Sharma: Yes.
Prabhupada: That I want. To keep people in darkness is not science. They are keeping people in darkness. They do not know how nature is working, how they are subjugated to the laws of nature and trying to be independent.
Keeping people in darkness in the name of science, now it should be stopped. That is my humble humble opinion. So your pandals...?
Giriraja: It's going on. People are still coming and... Did you see the press reports?
Tamala Krsna: We showed one this morning mentioning that the member of parliament had made a statement.
Dr. Sharma: I was going to bring to your kind notice, ever since we become independent, our moral fiber is really breaking down. We are spiritually, I think, the..., the deterioration has been very fast after 1947. Somehow this is...
Prabhupada: This is our so-called leaders misled them. Even Gandhi misled. That Vinobha Bhave is misleading, what to speak of others.
Dr. Sharma: Many of the even small temples in villages, their revenue have been taken away after independence. There are many small temples in where I come from, our village in Rajasthan. And when I was a small boy I used to go to the temple because, you know, my grandfather and my father used to go. And there was a very rich life in the villages because, you know, early morning, we would take a shower, bath, and go to the temples and do our puja, and the temple also we'd get some prasadam, and there was some land grants attached to a temple, some cows...
Prabhupada: Some contribution.
Dr. Sharma: Contribution. And there was a real rich life in Indian village. Now, after independence, that life has been really destroyed. Because the grants have been taken away and here, it's really a pain to see such beautiful temples having no maintenance now. Plus this so-called secular education, you know godless education they have introduced, that has further harmed, because the temple-going public has also dwindled in number. And it looks like there has been a systematic plan to undermine our...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, by this Congress. Their opinion is that India is too much religious; they spoiled.
Dr. Sharma: Yes. Also I just happened to do a survey in South about the party brahmanas who were having the...
Prabhupada: The brahmanas, they, from your Rajasthan, the other day, I got before. Twenty thousand brahmanas have come here in Bombay to serve as tea-walla.
Dr. Sharma: Tea-walla. That is correct.
Prabhupada: So who is caring for the... Because there is no maintenance, there is no education, so how the brahmanas are being maintained?
Dr. Sharma: These, the Rajasthani brahmanas were not that, you know, strong brahmanas as you see in south. In the south the brahmanas are very Vaisnavas, very staunch, and they were veda-pathis. They had the whole aural...
Prabhupada: No. Veda... Because the brahmanas, they should be veda-pathi, at the same time, the public also must know the importance of Vedas. So if you prepare the public that it is useless, then how these brahmanas can be maintained?
Dr. Sharma: Right now the number is dwindling so fast. The number of people who have the...
Svarupa Damodara: ...to go to the universities all over and present Krsna consciousness as a science. Write articles, using medical science to prove that Krsna is the origin. (indistinct)
Dr. Sharma: And there is a lot of scientific data in our ancient scriptures which I told them that if they go through from their point of view they will find lot of things in Puranas, in Srimad-Bhagavatam, in many Vedic...
Prabhupada: No, apart from Puranas and Vedic literatures, scientifically it is the modern science, according to their way, we can convince. Puranas you may not believe the authority. I may not believe. But scientific truth has to be accepted.
Dr. Sharma: Well actually nobody has looked from this angle as these people have described their angle. And I suggested to them when they have their research institute, they should go dig out every source from the... They will find a lot of material from our past.
Prabhupada: You have got that stage, so you should invite all scholarly people, every Sunday, Saturday, hold meeting, challenge them. In this way. Kavibhir nirupito yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam.
idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va
svistasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoh
avicyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupito
Avicyutah artha. It is the infallible conclusion that your education should be perfected when you can prove through your educational talents that there is God. Then it is... Avicyutah artha. Avicyutah means there is no fallacy—infallible. So that we have to do. Any other scientists joined from India?
Prabhupada: What is their opinion? They are afraid of joining?
Gopala Krsna: There is one doctor who lives on our land. He wants to work with them in proving that God exists. He has his M.V.B. from Russia.
Prabhupada: Russia is also purchasing our books. If the scientists do not believe in God, what is the reason?
Dr. Sharma: They just want a valid proof.
Prabhupada: Direct proof. The other day somebody asked me... Perhaps you were present? No. Logically. The logical proof, common sense, anyone who has got common sense, the logical proof is there. Just like everything is growing from the earth. The earth is giving birth. Earth, water, air, fire. Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh [Bg. 7.4]. Take, for example, water. You dig a pond, and after a few months there will be fishes. So wherefrom the fishes came? If you don't touch even, the fishes will come, and they will grow. So wherefrom the fish came? What is the answer?
Madhava: The scientists' answer? Well, immediately they would not say evolution, because it takes many billions of years to say evolution.
Prabhupada: Evolution..., apart from evolution, when I dig a pond, water comes out. You don't touch, after few days, after few months, there will be fishes.
Madhava: They would say there are eggs in the stream and...
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the eggs came?
Madhava: From another fish.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the eggs came?
Madhava: From another fish.
Prabhupada: Where is another fish? There was no fish when you dug this well. These rascals are great rascals, and they are going on in the name of scientists. Another, another, where is that another? Another means that is God. These rascals, they do not know that. They simply "another." Who is that another? That is God. Simple logic. The child is there, the mother is there, there must be father. This is logic. Otherwise how the living entity came into existence? Talk on this point. Jalaja nava-laksani. Sastra says in the beginning, jalaja, living entities born in the water. And they are not one kind. Not that one kind of fish is coming. Nava-laksani. Nine hundred thousand different types of life, varieties, varieties of life. So how these rascals say that all of a sudden came another? What is that another? Answer it. What is that another? "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." (laughter) What is that another? That "another" is God. It is simple for us. We understand. Why? Because you are Krsna conscious. Krsna says aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. "I am, here I am. I am the seed-giving father." Finished. We take it. So we are in full knowledge. What is the difficulty for us? There is father. You can say another or this or that, whatever way you can say. There is father. You do not know? Here, the father says, aham bija-pradah pita: "Yes, I am." We believe in Krsna, our knowledge is perfect. You rascal, you do not believe, do not know. Then you hover in the darkness forever and remain a rascal and declare yourself a scientist. Rascal, declaring as scientist.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually, scientific knowledge can be appreciated more when one accepts that Krsna...
Prabhupada: Yes. That should be propagated now. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. If you know simply Krsna, then everything. Why I am challenging, from the very beginning, all these rascal scientists? Because I believe in Krsna. That's all. Otherwise I am not a scientist. I cannot challenge the scientists. But yes, I can challenge. Because I know my knowledge is perfect.
Dr. Sharma: You sound like... You know when at the time of Yudhisthira rajasuya-yajna, there was Sisupala and the other people who objected. And then Sahadeva, who was to do agra-puja of Krsna, he said,
krsna na sahata vipra
sarvesam balinam modye
mayedam niyatam padam
"You kings who does not tolerate Krsna, who is killer of Kesi, and Kesava, if you don't honor, I am putting my foot over your head."
Prabhupada: That's it. "I kick you on your face with my boot."
Dr. Sharma: So that's what acarya is saying. "If you don't recognize on the scientists, my foot to you."
Prabhupada: So this should be stopped. These rascals, these fools, they are passing on as scientists and misleading others. That business should be stopped. Then they cannot answer wherefrom the fish came. What is the answer?
Dr. Sharma: I think that science should be limited to people who have got Krsna consciousness. Would you agree to that? You see in the beginning, when you select people for science, should you make it a prerequisite for admission that they should be Krsna consciousness. Maybe they will become better scientists, maybe they will not, you know, make atom bombs and destructive things if they were Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: I say to the scientists (indistinct) who as they say, life comes from chemicals. And I say that take some small egg. You can see, there are some substances like yellow substance and white substance. Analyze the chemicals and combine them and put in the incubator. You get one chicken. Why the rascals cannot do it? And still, they say that life comes from chemicals. What is the answer?
Devotee: They say it is too complicated.
Prabhupada: That means you do not know, and you are passing your remark that life comes from chemicals. Such a rascal you are. You do not know what is the thing, and still, you are declaring your knowledge. You are misleading people. And you are captured, you say, "Yes, wait millions of years. We shall do it by trying." What is this nonsense? All post-dated check. So these rascals should be stopped. Speaking all lies, propaganda. Let him go to hell, I don't mind. But why they are misleading others? That is the greatest harm they have done. We attack them only for this reason. Otherwise, individually, you go to hell. Who cares for you? But in the name of science and becoming a scientist, you are misleading others. Andha yathandhaih. You are blind rascal, and you are leading other blind men. Why you are doing these harmful activities? You are admitting that you are blindly believing. So you are blind. You remain blind if you don't accept knowledge. Why you are trying to lead other blind men? Let them have knowledge. They have got the opportunity, this human form of life. This is the opportunity to get knowledge. And you are keeping them in darkness. Is that service to the human?
Svarupa Damodara: The real scientists, they must be Krsna conscious. Otherwise he cannot be a scientist.
Prabhupada: No. The real thing he does not know. We know. We know on the basis of sastra, authorities, acaryas, so many. And what is your support? Your support is yourself. Then everyone will do that. His support is himself. Everyone will become authority. "I think, I believe." What is this nonsense, your belief? These things should be stopped now. (Hindi) Misleading, andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah [SB 7.5.31]. These conditioned souls, very stringently bound up hands and legs by the laws of nature, they are trying to lead the human society. This rascaldom must be stopped. You do not know. Say you do not know. That's all. Why you mislead others? Giving them false knowledge. If you do not know even the distinction between the living entity and the material elements... You are trying to prove the living entity is also combination of these material elements, chemicals. Such a rascal you are. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim param, jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam [Bg. 7.5]. It is very important thing. You do not know anything about it. Krsna again says, nainam dahati pavakah nainam chindanti sastrani. Negative definition. Still, you are so rascal, you do not understand, and you are misleading innocent persons. So combine together as many as possible and go and challenge.
Svarupa Damodara: Dr. Sharma can help us a lot in Bombay. Because I find that medical institutions, you know, hospitals, is a very good place to speak to the doctors. Because this life, this concept of life, and these bio-medical ethics is very appropriate. So...
Dr. Sharma: Yes, actually, this concept is very timely for our country, Prabhupada. My feeling is that our country has a special place in the Lord's heart, because He came here several times. And the very fact that after independence, nobody could prevent it again, and you have come, all these things, to stop it now. And I think the thing should start from...
Prabhupada: At least, I am the first man to try for it.
Dr. Sharma: And these people, they are very learned in their chosen fields, and they are Krsna conscious, and they are really keen to do it with enthusiasm, to turn the tide back.
Prabhupada: They have sacrificed their lives. They are scientists, they could earn lots of money, but they do not care for it. They have dedicated their lives. In America they could earn lots of money, such a qualified person. But they did not care for money. They care for the truth. That is real brahmana. Brahmana does not care for money. Knowledge. Satya samo damas titiksa arjavam jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. The truth. That is brahmana.
Dr. Sharma: And they are living like brahmanas in, you know, so... Bhagavan also has taken out time to protect the brahmana.
Prabhupada: His first business is to give protection to the brahmanas and the cows. Go-brahmana-hitaya ca. Jagad-dhitaya. Next, welfare of the others. First, Krsna says specifically, krsi-go-raksya. He gives specific instruction: go-raksya, protect cows. (Hindi) Somebody was speaking to me that some great astrologer long ago predicted the Russia will be first-class theist in future. Who was speaking that?
Devotee (1): What?
Devotee (1): I don't know.
Prabhupada: Yes. The atheists, when they are convinced, they become first-class theist. One of my teachers used to say that anyone who is not easily convinced, he does not forget easily also. And one who easily understands, he easily forgets. So the Russians, they are strong. You cannot convince them by bogus dogmatic theories.
Svarupa Damodara: That's very true. Scientists, once they are convinced, it is also very difficult to...
Prabhupada: Yes. He is not easily convinced, then easily he does not forget.
Dr. Sharma: I've always said, teach the Russians that we have our own brand of communism or socialism.
Prabhupada: Yes, I have already explained.
Dr. Sharma: Yavad... (Sanskrit) The amount of material you need to fill your belly, that is your own. You can call only that much you own. If you think you own something more, you are a thief and you should be punished. That's what Bhagavata says. This is the highest kind of socialism one can...
Prabhupada: This is real socialism. God is the supreme father. Everyone has got right to live at the cost of the father's property. But you cannot take more than that. Then you are a thief. Take whatever you... And even by nature you will find. You just immediately throw one bag of rice, so many birds will come. And they will take one or two grain or something... They will go away. And the human being, oh, he will take five shares, he will take ten shares. And within one hour, ten mounds of rice will be finished. The birds and beasts will not do that. Whatever he actually requires, they will take from there. Therefore they are not subjected to the sinful activities. Only human beings are subjected to sinful activities. But he has got developed consciousness and misusing it. There is no sinful activities for animals lower than the human being. There is no sin. Because they are under the laws of nature, the animals. And as soon as one becomes developed conscious human being, if he does not know the sastra and guided by spiritual master, he will do all nonsense. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Vikarma, all sinful activities. Only for sense gratification. Mad after sense gratification. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma. And what is the purpose of doing so many sinful activities? Yad indriya-pritaya, only for sense gratification. There is no other aim. Rsabhadeva says, "No, no, don't do this." So who is giving protection to these rascals who are educated to act sinfully? That is in Bhagavata. "No, no." Na sadhu manye. "This is not good." "But why not good? Let me enjoy." "No, you will not enjoy. You will create another body for suffering." Yata atmano 'yam asann api klesada asa dehah [SB 5.5.4]. You are already suffering. You have got this body. You are already suffering on account of your past activities. And you are creating again another body for suffering. So it is not good. They do not know. (Hindi) Four-wheel dogs. That is advancement of civilization. The dog is running with four legs, and he is running with four wheels. Dag-dag-dag-dag-dag. Where you are going? And this is their scientific advancement. Competition with dog. Otherwise what they have done? The ant hill, and four-legged wheel. That's all. Four wheel legs. This is animal civilization. Without knowing the aim of life, living in big, big skyscraper building, "I am king." And running like dogs with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Krsna's instructions: catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Divide the whole human society into four divisions and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins. Otherwise, what is the difference between dog and the human being? There is no difference. The leaders are teaching, "Feel like Indians." As a dog is feeling, "I am bulldog." This is our leaders. (Hindi)
Dr. Sharma: (Sanskrit) This India is considered...
Dr. Sharma: Punya-bhumi because the people here believe in karma and Lord Krsna, and in other countries they don't believe in Krsna. They are the bhoga-bhumis. They believe in just enjoying. That is why India is considered better. But now the modern India is not that India. This is from Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: (Hindi conversation)
Dr. Sharma: Actually, we never had the geographical conception of the nation. Only conception was the religious conception. Wherever Krsna is worshiped, that is India. That has been the concept through all the centuries, until 1947, you know, and then we had these boundaries. Otherwise, Krsna is worshiped in north, He is worshiped in south, He is worshiped in east, He is worshiped in west, and there are temples marking that plain. And that's what we call India. And that has been throughout the centuries. Not the geographical boundaries they have given now to India. Really you can make out the definition of India, where Krsna is worshiped, that is India. And that can be anywhere now, including worship in the United States or in Canada. Because He was the man, He was our Lord, He came here. He gave us the religion, He gave us the life, He gave us this... So now these politicians are taking that concept away, and they are changing the consciousness of the whole nation now. They want to change the consciousness. They want to make them materialistic. They want to make them greedy. They want to...
Prabhupada: And what materialistic advancement they have done?
Dr. Sharma: No thing.
Prabhupada: Now in our childhood, when we were ten-years-old boy, my father used to purchase high kilo sarasera tela, for eight annas. Can these rascals do to that standard? Eight annas, first-class Kanpur mustard oil. Now that oil... Not that quality oil, still, they are being sold thirteen rupees per kilo, instead of three annas.
Dr. Sharma: They were always, even in a small village, there were five or ten good people were to do the kirtana. You know, they had a knack of one particular instrument, they could get up and all on the Janmastami and so many festivals they used to have kirtana. And all, you know, small village, even nook and corner of the country, bubbling with life, religious life. This is only twenty-five years ago, even thirty years ago it was there. And look now...
Prabhupada: (Hindi) It is better late than never. (Hindi) We are sending our men from village to village. Not only here, also in the European countries.
Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, one of our basic points is that we are not this body but we are actually soul. So I would wonder how Dr. Sharma, he is a specialist in, I think, cardiology...
Dr. Sharma: Cardiac surgery.
Tamala Krsna: So we say that the soul is in the heart. So how can we convince the other doctors, for example, of the presence of the soul within the body and especially within the heart?
Prabhupada: They do not know that the soul is there. Because they have misunderstood. So when the soul goes away, they think their heart has pain. Material cause. They do not know because the soul has left, the heart is not working. They take it on the other way, that because the heart is not working, therefore he's lying down.
Dr. Sharma: Some of the ancient Indian medical texts, they do describe that heart is the seed of consciousness. (Hindi) The Susruta Samhita says that the heart is considered the consciousness. But the modern medical texts, they are actually...
Prabhupada: Modern means rascals.
Dr. Sharma: Yes. Actually, they are only two hundred years old.
Prabhupada: Say, rather, modern rascals. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61].
Dr. Sharma: Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah [Bg. 15.15]. And the (Sanskrit) says that the heart is the most important organ because it is concerned with atma and...
Prabhupada: Santah sadaiva hrdayesu. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu [Bs. 5.38]. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1].
Prabhupada: Artificial heart and this real heart the same thing—it is material. Where is the difference? There is no difference.
Dr. Sharma: Just like they are trying to produce babies in the test-tube. They are never going to be successful. But they can keep on trying. I recently went to Houston, and there I have read that they cannot keep somebody alive even more than five, six hours. So far away from such a thing.
Dr. Sharma: Well, the heart transplants actually have been given up everywhere except one place, that's in Stanford Medical Center. And they are doing it because they are the one who initially started it, so they are emotionally stable about it. But actually I have gone and seen there, and they do it... The people are, you know, the recipient patient is very unhappy after the heart transplant. He's very restless, and he has nightmares and he is extremely unhappy.
Dr. Sharma: Well, he has stopped after doing nine, but Stanford people, they have done about almost over a hundred, and they can keep somebody alive another six months or a year or at the most two years. But the man, the man's existence is very miserable. He has to take so many drugs, and he is bloated like a balloon, and he cannot even do the simple duties like taking walks or going to bathroom. He has to be very careful. If he just slips, it will develop the fracture of his ventricle, and that's all. It is very, very unnatural, and I don't think they can solve this problem at all. It is just man's struggle (for) life.(?) And I know they are saying they will do only in people with proper insurance because the hospital bill is $70,000 for a heart transplant.
Prabhupada: All rascals, they...
Dr. Sharma: This is a perfect example of what Prabhupada is saying, because this is not justified on any account-moral, ethical, medical...
Dr. Sharma: Or financial. They only waste their time, and this is, you know, an example of how stubborn man can be, especially the scientists. The real transplant that was done was done by the Lord Siva when he did transplant of the head of Lord Ganesa. That was the only successful transplant I know of.
Svarupa Damodara: So we will come back about four or five hours. (speaks to Dr. Sharma about setting up preaching engagements)
Dr. Sharma: (replying to Svarupa Damodara) ...to some of the basic scientists. Some of them have a spiritual background, you know. Just they probably are waiting to meet a person like your background or Madhava's background. Normally it has come out like this. People talk half-heartedly here, and they don't pursue it, they don't have the conviction to pursue it in this country. Very quickly give up. If I get this idea, then next morning I forget about it, and then whatever... I don't even, you know, I am afraid to talk about it. So you have very boldly come out with this, and so many centuries of tradition is there to back you up. So I think you should pursue it with all your enthusiasm, and with Prabhupada's blessing you will really go a long way, as I say about it.
Prabhupada: Seven thousand feet high altitude, it is good for a person to go there?
Dr. Sharma: I think it will be better if you go with an oxygen cylinder and by helicopter, not by the routine journey. Not by, you know..., gradual. Because suddenly you can get air hunger, you know, when you...
Prabhupada: It is risky.
Dr. Sharma: It is risky, yes. It is risky.
Prabhupada: Then forget this thing. (end)
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