Satsvarupa: Of course, evolutionary theory is that in the beginning, all the different species weren't there. Only simple forms, and then they..., more complex ones came about.

Prabhupada: Wherefrom they came? Dropped from the sky?

Satsvarupa: Some theories.

Prabhupada: (indistinct) has joined us, about fifty friends, Indians, they have left him.

Satsvarupa: [break] I plan to go to Detroit tomorrow. [break].... shall we leave.

Prabhupada: Oh. Tomorrow. We are leaving also tomorrow?

Satsvarupa: Yes.

Prabhupada: [break] ...of the garden, they are not clean. They should be clean. Just like in front of our, this temple, the footpath is very clean.

Satsvarupa: There's stones in the garden, washed.

Prabhupada: Yes. Grass, water it, cleanse. Mandira-marjanadau. That is also bhajana.

Visvakarma: [break] Do you think you'll be able to see the temple either today or tomorrow and give me some ideas on how to utilize the building?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Visvakarma: I can arrange it with Pusta Krsna? When you're available?

Prabhupada: Yes. After ten. (japa) [break].... lights are working in order, unless there is some supervision above this lightning system. If somebody says, "This is going on automatically," is that very sane? Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. Light is matter, combination of glass and iron, and it is going on with order without any upper supervision? How these rascals say like that? Because immediately they do not see who is pulling on the wire, "There is no (indistinct)." How poor knowledge they have. And they are passing on scientist. Why you are stopping car if there is no supervision? You can pass on, nobody will see. Why one is afraid of not transgressing?

Satsvarupa: They know the authority is there.

Prabhupada: Rascal, how you think there is no authority? There is no sinful, and there is no..., everything is all right? Go on. Go to hell.

Jagadisa: I remember, Srila Prabhupada, when I was young I was brought up in the Catholic church, and I learned to fear God, and be afraid of God. But then as I went to high school, due to...

Prabhupada: .... association, everything is bad(?). So degraded condition, there is no good association. Therefore I say that we require a first-class man section. A first-class.... All third class, fourth class. Even the so-called priests, they are also fourth-class, fifth-class men. Indulging in homosex.

Satsvarupa: This priest who joined us, who's now your man, he said that although he was a priest, he smoked three packs of cigarettes a day and drank all kind of wine. He began to drink wine, he said, because in their mass, in their ceremony, the priest drinks wine. And then then he became addicted.

Prabhupada: These rascals are priests. And they'll protect religion.

Hari-sauri: We used to have a Reverend who was in charge of our local church when I was a child. And when we used to go on outings, sometimes they used to organize outings for children to the seaside and everything, and they would stop at a public house and they would give refreshments. So all the children would get lemonade, like that, and the grown-ups would go and drink some beer or something. So the...

Prabhupada: Their father, mother drinking, and the child is given some soft drinking. And learning how to drink when he'll grow up.

Hari-sauri: This vicar, he used to sit, and he used to sip small glass of clear liquid. So everyone thought he was drinking water, but then once they checked, and it was pure vodka.

Prabhupada: While speaking lie "I was drinking water." (japa) (breakconverses in Hindi)

Indian man: Prabhupada, I'm trying to get one radio station you know, so far the, so that we make a Hare Krsna program. So the radio is the big media for...

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Devotee priest (Bhakta Gene): I'm told that...

Prabhupada: Oh, (laughs) how are you?

Bhakta Gene: Very fine, very fine. I'm told that you met with Thomas Merton some years ago. Is this correct?

Prabhupada: The French?

Bhakta Gene: No, the Cistertian monk from Kentucky.

Prabhupada: I do not know.

Bhakta Gene: You didn't meet with him? He was supposedly the most prominent mystical writer within the Catholic Church in the past one hundred years. His writings gained tremendous prominence in the past..., oh, the past twenty-five years.

Prabhupada: Prominence amongst whom?

Bhakta Gene: Uh, amongst Christians. And non-Christians as well. He made a trip to the East. He had an accident in the East and was electrocuted. Oh, this is some ten years ago now.

Jayadvaita: He wrote that original introduction for your first Bhagavad-gita published by Macmillan.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Bhakta Gene: Well, this raises a question in my mind, Your Grace. Within Christianity there has been a history of mysticism from 100 A.D. to the present. Now there have been some prominent mystics, a few prominent mystics, and a great many not so prominent. Now how do you classify these men, these Christian mystics, Protestant as well as Catholic?

Prabhupada: It is some yogic mysticism. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. They want to see some miracles, generally, ordinary public. So this mystic power, show some miracles and make them astonished. That's all. It has nothing to do with spiritual life.

Bhakta Gene: Perhaps you misunderstood me. I was referring to truly devotional mystics, such as St. John of the Cross, St. Francis of Assisi.

Prabhupada: If there is devotional service, where is the need of mysticism? There is no need. God is my master, I am His servant. Where there is necessity of this nonsense mysticism?

Bhakta Gene: I think that the term mysticism, so many people have been playing with, particularly here in the United States.

Prabhupada: So many people, we have nothing to do with so many people. If you are actually servant of God, so God is there, you are servant. So your transaction is there. Just to carry out the orders of God. That's all. Why do you want mysticism? Just to show some jugglery to the people? You serve God. That's all. And it is very simple thing, what God orders. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Where is the question of mysticism? There is no question of mysticism. God says "Just always think of Me. Offer your obeisances and worship Me." That's all. Where is the need of mysticism? It is all jugglery.

Indian man: I tell you, I think there's a wrong conception.

Prabhupada: You think in your way. There is no meaning in your thinking unless you come to the line.

Indian man: No, sir. There's a wrong conception, that mysticism. They say it comes with the spiritual advancement. I think that's what he's getting at.

Prabhupada: The problem is that we are suffering in this material world life after life, and our aim is how to again go back to home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are showing some mysticism. Stop death. Then I shall see your mysticism. What is this nonsense mysticism? Can you stop death? Is it possible? Then what is the meaning of this mysticism? All bogus. My problem is that I am accepting one body and suffering, because as soon as I get this material body, I have to suffer. Then I am creating another body. I die. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. And again begins another chapter. In this way, from this grass life to the demigods, I am simply changing body and dying and taking birth. This is my problem. So what mysticism will do? But that they do not know, what is the problem. That is clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. This is your problem. You are repeatedly taking birth and dying, and so long you are living there are so many troubles. Jara-vyadhi. Especially old age and disease. So this is the problem. What mysticism will help you? Will the mysticism stop your birth, death, old age and disease? Then that is mysticism. Otherwise, what is the use of such nonsense things. [break] ...misleading from the real path. They do not know what is the aim of life, what is the problem of life. They create some mysticism, and some rascal people are after them. That's all. "Here is mystic."

Indian: How important is the association with the devotees?

Prabhupada: Yes. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. Therefore sadhu-sanga wanted. Association of devotees. That is wanted. Then our life will be successful. Not mysticism.

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, I think Bhakta Gene wants to know if you recognize that there are any great devotees in that Christian tradition. Do we recognize that any of those Christian saints were great devotees? Did they develop love of God? Or what's the comparison?

Prabhupada: I do not know, I have not studied Christianity. But if anyone has developed love, that is perfection. So there is not question of my knowing or not knowing. If actually one has developed love for God, he's perfect. That's all.

Bhakta Gene: This is what prompted me to ask my first question, Your Grace. What has brought me here has been my search...

Prabhupada: No, it is God's desire that you are sincere, you have come. Now utilize the association and the opportunity, your life will be successful. We have got enough books to convince you about this science. So you read it.

Bhakta Gene: I am convinced.

Prabhupada: Yes. Why one should be after mysticism? What is the benefit?

Bhakta Gene: It was the mystics that brought me here. This was the thing. It was their love of God...

Prabhupada: Where is mystic? We don't show any mystic.

Bhakta Gene: No. The term, we're having trouble with the term. The term "mystic" was applied to transcendentalists within the church to show a difference between them and the traditionalists. The traditionalists were those who paid attention to the script.

Prabhupada: What do you mean by traditionalist?

Bhakta Gene: The traditionalists are strictly the old Roman Catholic traditionalists.

Prabhupada: No, apart from Roman or, what do you mean by traditionalist?

Bhakta Gene: Those who abided by tradition rather than the scriptures.

Prabhupada: Oh, scripture, they have no respect for scripture?

Bhakta Gene: Well, they had respect for scriptures, but they had more respect for tradition. Ritualistic laws.

Prabhupada: What is the tradition?

Satsvarupa: The way the church would apply the ritual rather than actually trying to...

Prabhupada: But that is required. That is required. Just like we are worshiping the Deity. This is traditional. From time immemorial. So how you can reject? This is the way. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. That is bhakti way.

Bhakta Gene: But so much of the tradition within the Roman Church has no reference to any scripture.

Prabhupada: No, no, that has not been properly done. Otherwise, just like here, we have got temple, regulative principle. If it is done properly, the result will be there. If it is improperly done, then there is no result. How these boys, European, American, they never knew what is Krsna. But on account of this following the traditionalism, they are becoming devotees. It is practical, you can see. Simply theoretical knowledge will not do. Must be practical. That is traditionalism. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. That is the Nectar of Instruction. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. This is traditional. One has to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Utsahan niscayad dhairyat tat-tat-karma-pravartanat [Upadesamrta 3]. First of all one must be enthusiastic: "I shall become devotee." Then, utsahan dhairyat, with patience. Then niscayat, with conviction: "Yes, I am following the rules and it will be successful." And tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. You have to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Sato vrtteh, you must be honest. Sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. And these things in the association of devotees. Sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati. Then your bhakti, devotional life, will be successful.

Satsvarupa: Some of these Christian mystics would say it's more important to directly contact God within your own heart. These traditions are not as important.

Prabhupada: God is there already. Where is the contact? God is there already. It is no question of contacting. He is already, but you are blind, you cannot see. Therefore if you follow the rules and regulations, then you'll see. You'll see. Otherwise we'll not see. God is there. God is everywhere. God is here. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. You have no eyes to see.

Bhakta Gene: These are almost the very words that Francis of Assisi stated.

Prabhupada: Yes. This question was raised in Melbourne. And that is perfectional. He was embracing tree. So I told, "This is perfection." Perfection means he'll see everywhere God and everything in God. That is perfection.

Hari-sauri: I think we should go back now, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, maya tatam idam sarvam. Maya. You just explain this verse.

You understand this?

Jayadvaita: Yes. Krsna says that "Everything is resting in Me. I am present all over the universe, impersonally. I can't be seen. Everything is resting on Me. At the same time, I'm outside of everything. I'm independent." He maintains His personality.

Prabhupada: Na caham tesv avasthitah. "I'm not there." So this is conception of God. Nothing can exist without God. But that does not mean everything is God. We have to understand this philosophy.

Indian man: I just want to ask..., Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu, Bhaktisiddhanta your spiritual master. How you spent the days, your young age, with Bhaktisiddhanta?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Indian man: Yes. Bhaktisiddhanta, your spiritual master.

Prabhupada: Young age? I was not with him. I was householder. But I used to meet with him. I was following his instructions. [break] ...valley? (indistinct) valley? No.

Visvakarma: That's another section, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: That verse, can anyone remember? Yatra yogesvarah krsnah? Huh?

Prabhupada: Yes. So what is the explanation?

Indian man: Where Lord Krsna and Arjuna are there, there the victory.

Prabhupada: Ah. Then all mystic power is there. That means where there is Krsna and His pure devotee, the whole mystic power is there. Tatra srih?

Jayadvaita: Vijayo bhutih.

Prabhupada: Ah. Tatra srir vijayo bhutih. Devotee, he hasn't got to try separately for all these things. It will come automatically. That is mysticism. (laughter) (converses in Hindi) (end)