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750327rc.may
Conversation with the GBC
March 27, 1975, Mayapur Atreya Rsi: ...has done, and what everyone likes to do.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Atreya Rsi: And then we will decide.
Jayatirtha: That's nice. That's nice. So I can go on and read these...?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: I hope this isn't, er... Anyway, this is discussing the responsibilities of the GBC men in their zones. So we've already said to organize opening new temples, to appoint temple presidents for new temples, to be responsible for training all temple presidents and insuring spiritual standards. In the case of major deviation or resignation...
Prabhupada: Now, you... First of all, you finish one business. That Oath of Allegiance, so addition, alteration, you have made, complete, so that it may be typed?
Jayatirtha: Satsvarupa is...
Satsvarupa: The only thing we've done is comment that Asnani's form hasn't specified on devotional principles.
Prabhupada: So make addition, alteration, I say. You amongst yourselves.
Prabhupada: So do it amongst yourselves.
Jayatirtha: All right.
Prabhupada: Discuss and do it, and make a final...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Prabhupada: Eh.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Everything we have is spiritual.
Prabhupada: We cannot avoid.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: So somebody can read it?
Prabhupada: So next make this final.
Atreya Rsi: I recommend that you put Brahmananda Swami's reco..., on the top part, just...
Prabhupada: Hmmm? What is that?
Atreya Rsi: Brahmananda Swami's proposals, top portion, we'll just add?
Prabhupada: Yes. So whatever you make, addition, alteration, make it copied.
Atreya Rsi: And give it to be typed.
Prabhupada: Don't keep it. Finish one business.
Satsvarupa: So it's just a matter of typing it, then?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: We can't sign anything now. It's not any...
Prabhupada: No, I mean to say, you are... You make some addition, alteration, to that. So make it complete. Then retype and then sign.
Satsvarupa: Yes. Everyone has agreed on what it should be.
Atreya Rsi: Has everyone agreed?
Madhudvisa: Well, why don't you read it? Why don't you compose it and then let us all see what it says.
Satsvarupa: If I can read it out loud... Can I have the other...?
Brahmananda: We're... Read what the proposal at the top portion...
Madhudvisa: I give Satsvarupa the whole thing in that...(?)
Satsvarupa: All right. So the whole thing, then, would read like... This is a proposal that it should read like this: "I, spiritual name, as initiated disciple, and GBC secretary of His Divine Grace..."
Madhudvisa: Both names should be there.
Atreya Rsi: No, prabhuji...
Madhudvisa: Spiritual and, and, and legal name...
Atreya Rsi: It should start with this.
Satsvarupa: Well, it's not sure what it should start with. That's it.
Madhudvisa: Both names should be there because a spiritual name is not legal.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: Both names. Good.
Satsvarupa: "...as GBC secretary of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder..."
Prabhupada: You... You... You make one copy, your copy, and make addition, alteration, corrections, and then copy the same thing for other men. That will be easier.
Satsvarupa: All right.
Prabhupada: You... You just fill up one copy, as you are doing. So make addition, alteration, your name, your spiritual name, everything complete. So, following that copy, others will do. (?) Is that all right?
Atreya Rsi: I recommend that we keep this one.
Prabhupada: Or you can make... Anyone, you can take.
Atreya Rsi: In this shape.
Prabhupada: You, you can make addition, alteration, everything, and read it complete. Then take that proposal. That's all.
Jayatirtha: So maybe, Atreya Rsi, you can write out a final draft of it...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: ...including both things, and then you can read it to everyone.
Atreya Rsi: Where's Brahmananda Swami?
Jayatirtha: Is that all right? Should we go on while he's writing?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: We can go on.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: The main purpose of these points is simply to try to put it down in writing what the GBC man can do himself, what things he requiresthe whole groupwhat things he requires to consult with others on, in this way, so there won't be any question "What I can do, what I can't do." Is that all right?
Jayatirtha: O.K. (Reading) "To insure that the highest standards, including spiritual temple worship, sankirtana propaganda, recruitment of new devotees and life members, financial management and repayment of all debts are being adhered to."
Prabhupada: Why debts? Debts should be avoided. Not payment, but one should not make debt.
Jayatirtha: But that... All temples... All the temples are in debt.
Prabhupada: Why? That's not... Debts are very wrong. (?)
Jayatirtha: Either they owe BBT money or they owe bank money.
Prabhupada: That is not good. Debts should be... No debts. If any temple wants to make debt, it must be sanctioned by the GBC committee.
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Prabhupada: Make it clear.
Jayatirtha: That's nice.
Prabhupada: Not that he whimsically, the president, and put the Society into debts, unless it is sanctioned.
Jayatirtha: That's included in here, more or, more or less.
Prabhupada: Make it clear: "They cannot create any debt."
Jayatirtha: Just like to come to this festival has put everyone in debt.
Prabhupada: That is risky. That is risky.
Rupanuga: Be very specific about it.
Jayatirtha: Right. The next point is to insure...
Atreya Rsi: Let me just make sure this is understood. Any, any debts that any temple has, is going to make, has to be approved by the GBC representative.
Atreya Rsi: Loan.
Atreya Rsi: But...
Prabhupada: Loan is also debt.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. But if they are buying BBT books, if... On the books it may seem debt, but in fact he should know that he's going to pay for it in the very near fu... That you do not consider need approval, do you, Srila Prabhupada?
Jayatirtha: The books are sold on consignment.
Prabhupada: No, and that is all right. That is all right.
Jayatirtha: If they fall behind, then it becomes a debt.
Atreya Rsi: In other words, as long as he meets the terms, it's not a debt. It's not a loan.
Prabhupada: That's it.
Atreya Rsi: As soon as it goes over the term, it's unapproved.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. That's a loan. That has to be approved. That has to be, as much as possible, avoided. In other words, everything you're doing, more or less, on cash basis.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: You don't depend on tomorrow.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: Otherwise, sometimes a president may leave, leaving so many debts, so many loans, so many this, so many that.
Atreya Rsi: This is our standard of management. Listen. If the temple president doesn't understand it, teach him.
Jayatirtha: That's right.
Prabhupada: That's right. So all these things you write. Otherwise you forget.
Jayatirtha: Yeah, that, we'll... The next point is to insure that the proper criterion for recommending candidates for initiation be followed...
Prabhupada: That is being done.
Jayatirtha: ...and to insure that the...
Prabhupada: The president recommends, or the GBC recommends.
Tamala Krsna: Is there any fixed amount of time that one has to be in the Society to get first, hari-nama, initiated? Because I...
Prabhupada: That we have already fixed, six months to one year.
Rupanuga: One year, you said, after that.
Prabhupada: No, within one year. That's all. If one, within one year, one does not become to the standard, then he's unfit.
Atreya Rsi: The recommendation here, Srila Prabhupada, is that...
Prabhupada: Generally by the president.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, that the president's recommendation is overseeing, is scrutinized, by GBC, so that when Your Divine Grace gets a recommendation, it's been, by someone else, it's been checked. Do you think it's unnecessary?
Prabhupada: It is.
Atreya Rsi: Unnecessary. Jaya Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: If one is not personally sincere, however he is checked...
Atreya Rsi: Yes, so this is unnecessary.
Prabhupada: ...then he's useless. Useless.
Atreya Rsi: In other words, an addition, "directly," directly... You know we just have to put down what Prabhupada... Directly president can...
Prabhupada: Generally, it is one year after. (?)
Atreya Rsi: Put it down.
Jayatirtha: Right, right.
Prabhupada: At least not for... (?)
Atreya Rsi: Jayatirtha, put... "Directly goes..."
Rupanuga: Srila Prabhupada, after first initiation, one has to wait one year to get second initiation?
Prabhupada: Six months.
Rupanuga: At least six months.
Jayatirtha: Six months after first initiation. All right. So the next role for the GBC man is to act as the designated representative of Srila Prabhupada to settle all philosophic, procedural disputes which may arise and are not settled at the temple level. In other words, any philosophic question a temple president can't ans...
Prabhupada: No, you... Eh?
Jayatirtha: If there's some philosophic question and the temple president can't answer it, then the GBC...
Prabhupada: Then GBC should be consulted. And if the GBC cannot answer, then I'll answer.
Jayatirtha: Right. Or, if there's some quarrelone man doesn't like another man, and the temple president can't solve it-then...
Prabhupada: What is quarrel?
Jayatirtha: ...the GBC man can solve it.
Prabhupada: There is no question of quarrel. Quarrel is material.
Jayatirtha: Yes. But it is the Age of Quarrel.
Prabhupada: Quarrel is not good.
Jayatirtha: The next point is to obtain reports from the temple presidents, financial reports, like this, to see that things are being looked up.
Prabhupada: The general report should be submitted at least monthly.
Jayatirtha: Yes. So "to obtain all reports on a timely basis..."
Prabhupada: To the board of the GBC or to the individual, zonal GBC. Yes.
Jayatirtha: We have kind of a system outlined in here, how reports can be done. It's a technical thing, but...
Prabhupada: But they have that everyone is chanting sixteen rounds, everyone is following the principles, "so much money received, so much money deposited in the bank."
Jayatirtha: Right.
Prabhupada: "And this is the balance." And these are general (?) report. That's all.
Jayatirtha: Right. Yeah, we have...
Prabhupada: The financial means what they have collected, what they have spent.
Jayatirtha: Right.
Prabhupada: And general reporting: "Yes, everyone is chanting," or "He is not chanting in spite of warning," like that.
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is very good.
Jayatirtha: So we have some guidelines in here about that. So, so should I go on with this?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jayatirtha: So then the next thing, besides having a zonal responsibility, a GBC man may have a functional responsibility, like we've already discussed.
Prabhupada: Functional, main functional responsibility is to go and see that the temple regular work is going on, the president is doing nicely, to check in this way. You can sit down in the class, in the..., and see how things are going on. That's it.
Jayatirtha: That's it. Now, one point we've included that we haven't really done before is the idea of establishing committees and individual service...
Prabhupada: Committee, I shall appoint also, if there is any need. Amongst the GBC, I shall pick up some members and make a committee for a particular...
Jayatirtha: For example, we put down that there may be a regional committee.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: Just like in Europe, we have a regional committee for managing, I understand...
Prabhupada: What is that regional co...?
Jayatirtha: Isn't it Bhagavan, Hamsaduta...?
Jayatirtha: So it's a kind of regional committee for managing.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: So we similarly...
Prabhupada: That we can change also. For the time being, it is going on.
Atreya Rsi: I think what Srila Prabhupada has said to us is that if we have very close cooperation, the spirit of committee consultation always exists...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Like if Bhagavan dasa is in U.S., then Satsvarupa Maharaja and Rupanuga Prabhu will consult with him, like they always consult with each other.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: They should always... And this spirit should go on amongst the twelve. Or if I'm in Tehran, and if there is a financial matter...
Prabhupada: Yes. Don't bring politics. Then it will be ruined.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. The spirit should be that you write me and ask me, and I will give you all the service that I can. This should come in us.
Jayatirtha: For example, in the United States...
Atreya Rsi: Not so much, necessarily, committees and formal...
Prabhupada: So if a committee is necessary, it should be decided, first stage, decided by the GBC, and I'll give final sanction.
Jayatirtha: For example, one committee that I would propose is in the United States, since we share so many similar problems and so many problems overlap...
Prabhupada: So you... No, the GBC is already there. But that is... Committee is there, the whole committee. But for any special purpose, if committee is required...
Jayatirtha: Another example of a kind of committee would be some projects. Say...
Prabhupada: Project will be decided by the GBC.
Jayatirtha: Say, the Gurukula, for example...
Prabhupada: Now I have elected this committee in Europe because the German trouble is going on. When the German trouble is over, there is no need of committee. It is only for this particular purpose because there we have to defend court, we have to see... So two, three heads, not one head. One head may be puzzled. Committee means for special purposes. Otherwise, the standing committee, GBC, is already there.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Prabhupada: Just like I appointed the committee to investigate...
Prabhupada: Yes. So that committee is not standing. Yet similarly, a committee may be formed for some special circumstances, but otherwise the GBC committee is sufficient.
Jayatirtha: The main point about that is that the GBC, we all meet together once a year...
Prabhupada: Yes. And form all, what is to be discussed, what you are going to do, future. Just like you can discuss the German affairs, and find out how to defend ourselves. Of course, it is in the hands of the lawyer. Still, we can suggest...
Jayatirtha: Take, for another example, there's the ISKCON Food Relief Program. Now, last year we discussed this, but no one was given any specific responsibility for it, and nothing really has been... Some money has been collected, but nothing major has been done. My idea would be that if there were a committee, say, of two, three men formed who would conjointly discuss and work on these projects, such as this ISKCON Food Relief, then more would get done.
Hamsaduta: No, I think it's entirely an individual...
Prabhupada: I think this Oath of Allegiance should be signed by the presidents also.
Jayatirtha: That's nice.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only the GBC, but the president.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: I just want to ask a question. We're in a... This meeting right now is concerning ISKCON and the GBC, but are we going to have some kind of meeting regarding the BBT? Because that's a very pressing matter also. Is that going to come in in these discussions, or are we going to have a separate meeting?
Prabhupada: The BBT I am conducting personally.
Tamala Krsna: But you mentioned in Miami... This is the reason I'm bringing it up. In Miami we mentioned that we would be discussing at Mayapur. Something, you know, should be done so that...
Prabhupada: What is that something? The first something is that everyone is complaining that they are not getting books. You just, first of all, do it, how to stop these complaints.
Jayatirtha: In India?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: This is the problem.
Prabhupada: The India is membership, and the members, if they are dissatisfied, then? This is not good. So find out the way how this complaint can be solved.
Hamsaduta: So does it mean that the BBT should take charge of the Life Membership program or to see that they're supplied the books?
Prabhupada: No. Life Membership... Suppose you make one Life, he has to be supplied books.
Hamsaduta: Yes.
Prabhupada: So fifty percent goes to the...
Hamsaduta: Book Fund.
Prabhupada: That is stated in the BBT. That is the main purpose, that fifty percent must go...
Hamsaduta: For printing. Fifty percent for printing, fifty percent for building.
Prabhupada: That's all right. This is the main purpose.
Brahmananda: But the difficulty is that in India there's no other source of income besides the Life Membership. How they will maintain?
Prabhupada: What is the...? That you discuss.
Prabhupada: That you discuss, how these sources, how their maintenance should be... But BBT is already declared. It is meant for two purposes. Now you find out how the sources. That is business of GBC.
Jayatirtha: That we can discuss afterwards?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada...
Prabhupada: The BBT, that, it should be: how the complaints should be stopped, and if they have no other income, then how things should be managed. That is... GBC should discuss.
Atreya Rsi: In other words, Srila Prabhupada, BBT is not outside ISKCON. BBT is part of ISKCON, and GBC is in charge of all ISKCON. But in this case, BBT, you have your personal attention, so since you are the supreme authority in ISKCON, you will...
Prabhupada: Now, one thing is that sometimes before, Jayatirtha suggested that if the ISKCON goes to liquidation, then the BBT also will be affected.
Atreya Rsi: This is only a legal matter.
Prabhupada: Legal matter. So I want to protect BBT.
Atreya Rsi: Legally, you will want. But, in fact, GBC is also concerned...
Prabhupada: That you are concerned. You do thisnow how to stop these complaints.
Atreya Rsi: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now they want to maintain from the GBC income. How this can be avoided, you consider.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. It is not something we forget because it's BBT.
Prabhupada: Yes. But these are the important problems, that the, here in India, the members are complaining. Sometimes they are sending complaining to me. So the first business is how to, how the collection from the membership is being dispersed, how the money is being dispersed. Suppose I... He is a member. I take him, 222. Then how the money is being sent? So you see first of all that...
Prabhupada: Yes. This is GBC matter.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: I would like to ask a question. Just like in the... Now, this is one point to consider. Now, another point is, which we have put off until this meeting, especially to be considered in this meeting, is the moving of the Press. The moving of ISKCON Press. Is that...
Prabhupada: That you decide amongst the GBC.
Prabhupada: No. It is GBC, er, yeah, GBC.
Prabhupada: Yes. I want to see, as the chairman of the BBT, that fifty percent is spent on printing and fifty percent is for constructing temples. That's all.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That means, practically speaking, the management... The BBT is separate from ISKCON for legal purposes, but the management of it is done by the GBC.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's nice.
Atreya Rsi: However, at the present, Prabhupada himself is heading this management.
Atreya Rsi: But in this particular case he's heading it very particularly. This is something...
Atreya Rsi: Because it's very sensitive issue. It doesn't mean separate.
Rupanuga: But now, we discussed this... We discussed this before, Srila Prabhupada. You said that you didn't... You wanted to make some more BBT members.
Prabhupada: If I require, I can make.
Tamala Krsna: The reason I'm bringing this up is because, heretofore, the BBT has been managed by one or two trustees, and the point is that maybe it is best that it be managed by the GBC.
Prabhupada: So that... First of all manage these things. Then you will, it will be included in the trustees. First of all show your capacity that you have managed these things very nicely, these two things. Why there should be complaint? How you can solve it? And why the temples should be maintained by collection of the BBT? It is meant for printing and constructing temples. Why should (we) violate the purpose of the Trust? So first of all you manage these two things. Then, if you want, you can come. If the problem remains the same, then what is the use of increasing heads?
Atreya Rsi: What is obvious is that Prabhupada's interference has always come because we have not done our jobs right.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: He would very much like to...
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the real purpose.
Atreya Rsi: He would... As soon as we show that we can...
Hamsaduta: Work together.
Atreya Rsi: Work together and manage nicely, he wants to.
Prabhupada: Now, so far the... Just like in Germany. They unnecessarily take the money while there is creditor, printer. There was no need of keeping money. Go on paying them. That was my policy. I instructed Karandhara that whenever there is collection, go to pay. That arrangement I made with Dai Nippon, that "I shall go on paying. You don't ask me." So he never asked me. You know that.
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Prabhupada: As soon as there is collection, I paid him: "And you go on printing these books." This should be the policy.
Atreya Rsi: This is very important that we understand. This is not common in the karmi world, that Srila Prabhupada does not like credit or playing with money and saving it or something... You have a debt; you pay it; you don't create debt. Everything is just very honest and very flowing. This I have to learn myself because this is not the way the business world is, although I do a lot of business. And we all have to see that this policy is followed.
Prabhupada: This complaint from the members is not at all good. If somebody becomes envious, he can file a suit that "These men have collected money from me, eh, but not supplied books."
Jayatirtha: They sign a document we also sign.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: We sign one document when they become a member.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: And they sign also. It's a contract.
Prabhupada: So this is the first thing, that the GBC maintains here. Immediately the collection is therefifty percent goes to the BBT account, and fifty percent goes to the printer.
Atreya Rsi: May I recommend, Srila Prabhupada, that one GBC member, plus GBC India be appointed to look very carefully into this whole si...
Prabhupada: Be appointed. Do this. Be appointed.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. We will.
Prabhupada: Yes, do this.
Atreya Rsi: To investigate this whole...
Prabhupada: Why...? Just stop this complaint.
Atreya Rsi: This whole membership program.
Prabhupada: I am giving you the appointment. Do it.
Hamsaduta: We can consult with him later.
Jayatirtha: So we'll discuss it and try to find out the details...
Atreya Rsi: Put it in the agenda, this membership plan, immediately.
Jayatirtha: ...later on
Prabhupada: These complaints are not at all good. They have become very serious. Complaint must be stopped. Why they are...? Now print cheap edition here and give them books. Sell also.
Rupanuga: They cannot accuse of being cheating.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Rupanuga: They cannot accuse us of cheating them.
Prabhupada: It is not good at all. Why there is complaint?
Jagadisa: So make the agenda.
Jayatirtha: I have nine points on the agenda so far.
Jagadisa: What is it?
Jayatirtha: The...
Prabhupada: Just like Syamasundara. He was appointed the BBT member. And what he is doing?
Jayatirtha: There's been a very high attrition rate on GBC...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: There's been a very high attrition rate on BBT trustees.
Prabhupada: So this thing should be arranged first of all. Then...
Jayatirtha: So the... There are a number of points that require discussion...
Prabhupada: So discuss...
Jayatirtha: I don't know, necessarily, that it's your desire to have them discussed in your presence or, for example...
Prabhupada: No, I don't want, but if you want, you can...
Jayatirtha: Well, we always love to have your association, Srila Prabhupada.
Rupanuga: What about if you, at least, can approve the agenda?
Jayatirtha: Yes, that's nice.
Rupanuga: If you can give us your blessings...
Prabhupada: That you discuss, some of the agenda.
Jayatirtha: The agenda that we've created so far is... The first point on the agenda is how to become Krsna conscious.
Jayatirtha: Yes. You said that that should be our first point.
Prabhupada: Krsna conscious movement means... It is very practical. Because our consciousness is now polluted... Just like water. Water, originally, crystal clear water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes dirty, muddy. So our consciousness-originally clear, Krsna consciousness: "Krsna is my eternal master. I am eternal servant." This is real consciousness. Now, since we have come into this material world, we have made, instead of Krsna, "My wife is my master, my society is my master, my country is my master, my political leader is my master," so many. So the Krsna consciousness means to purify the dirty things and then... So, to purify this, Caitanya Mahaprabhu has recommended, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleaning the mirror of consciousness, this Hare Krsna mantra. This is only way.
Jayatirtha: Jaya. So that's the first point.
Prabhupada: That is the first point.
Jayatirtha: And the next point ...
Prabhupada: We should know that our consciousness is now polluted. The... Exactly like this: Clear water falls down from the sky, and as soon as come in contact with the ground, it becomes muddy. You can take the water again and filter, and then again clear. Again crystal clear.
Jayatirtha: By nature water is clear.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayatirtha: And sometimes it can become polluted.
Prabhupada: And the whole devotional service means ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That is the recommendation of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, cleansing the dirty-politically, socially, communally, and internationally, nationally... In this way, it is all contaminated. So that, that is called upadhi, unnecessary. Just like water. You bring the colored water. That is contamination, not crystal. So these are different colors. So you have to strain the water from different colors. Then that is Krsna consciousness. Consciousness is already there. So instead of thinking Krsna, that "I am Krsna's," I am thinking, "I am my family's. I am my, my cat's, my dog's, my nation's, my community's..." This thinking is opposite Krsna consciousness. And when you simply think that "I am Krsna's," that's all. That is all.
Hamsaduta: Yeah.
Jayatirtha: So, so the agenda...
Prabhupada: Is that all right?
Devotees: Jaya.
Atreya Rsi: Just applicable to myself, it's very easy to think that "Now I am in a position of responsibility. I may be most advanced." But what your instruction is that I always think that this position of responsibility requires that I become pure, so I have to be very, very careful. I am not most advanced. I have to...
Prabhupada: That purity process is chanting.
Atreya Rsi: I have to chant very carefully...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: ...and very seriously.
Prabhupada: Offenseless.
Atreya Rsi: Not that I'm already advanced.
Prabhupada: Offenseless chanting, that will purify. That is the easiest process, given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Ceto-da...(?) He first of all recommends cleansing the heart. And as soon as your heart is cleansed, then you become immediately purified. This is the way. So be always engaged, either in chanting or reading or preaching. Then it will be clarified.
Rupanuga: It is actually a very easy process.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is the easiest process. There is no secondary process. Chanting. And it is recommended by Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the authority, param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. So many things will happen.
ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam
sreyah-kairava candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam (sarvatma-snapanam) param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam [Cc. Antya 20.12] This is His recommendation. We haven't got to invent something. It is there already. You do it.
Jayatirtha: So the agenda for the GBC meeting to decide on... First of all, Jagadisa has made one proposal for financing Gurukula, if it has to be discussed.
Prabhupada: Hm? Financing?
Jayatirtha: Gurukula is having some serious financial difficulties. So Jagadisa has made a proposal, which we'll discuss.
Prabhupada: So everyone's son is there, all devotees' son. So from every center some contribution should be given to the Gurukula.
Jayatirtha: Jaya. That was my proposal. That becomes a kind of tax.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jayatirtha: In a sense, it's like a school tax.
Prabhupada: But, at the same time, it should be examined how Gurukula is spending money.
Jayatirtha: Yes. Jagadisa has made a complete report.
Prabhupada: Not unnecessarily spending. That is the duty of the GBC.
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada, about this tax, about this money to be taken from each temple. Gurukula is one of the projects. For example, there may be another project...
Prabhupada: What is that?
Atreya Rsi: ...that Your Divine Grace and group, when you travel, there needs to be also... Every temple should contribute to that as well.
Prabhupada: Well, if every temple cannot contribute, I shall manage from the BBT fund. That is not a problem.
Atreya Rsi: You want...? I am using that merely as a...
Prabhupada: And if you can pay, it is all right. If there is deficit, BBT will pay. You don't bother.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. But in this Gurukula project, Srila Prabhupada, temples are having difficulty in paying their debts to BBT already. I don't think they will respond, respond. On one hand, BBT, Ramesvara Prabhu is recommending that we reduce the cost of books, and on the other hand, it's being recommended that the tax for Gurukula be collected.
Prabhupada: No, no, cost of book... Cost of books?
Atreya Rsi: Not cost. Price of books.
Jayatirtha: Yes, price of...
Prabhupada: Cost of selling price.
Jayatirtha: That we discussed with you in Dallas, Ramesvara and I.
Prabhupada: No, no. There is no need. There is no need.
Atreya Rsi: So what I was...
Prabhupada: It is not a fact that by reducing the price you'll sell more.
Jayatirtha: No, no. Not reducing the price to the public. Reducing the cost to the temple, so the temple can make more profit.
Prabhupada: That you can do.
Jayatirtha: That we discussed with you in Dallas.
Atreya Rsi: What I am recommending is that, instead of reducing the charge to the temple and then collecting a separate tax, do not reduce the charge to the temple. Whatever reduction you were going to give, give that reduction to Gurukula.
Jayatirtha: Then that means that BBT is paying.
Atreya Rsi: No, BBT is not paying. You're going to give them a reduction. Don't give it to them...
Madhudvisa: That means giving them unlimited money.
Atreya Rsi: Eh?
Madhudvisa: That means giving them unlimited money.
Atreya Rsi: No. Well, for example, let's say I...
Madhudvisa: If I distribute more books, then Gurukula gets more money. Then... They don't need all that money.
Atreya Rsi: No.
Prabhupada: No, no. This... This is... Contribution is better for you.
Atreya Rsi: Separate contribution.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: Does that, does that... What about those temples that don't have any children there in Gurukula. Because it seems that the problem is not just that... There are people besides devotees who are not paying...
Prabhupada: No, they can give.(?)
Jagadisa: That's part of the proposal. Why not discuss in relationship to the proposal.
Jayatirtha: Right. We have the whole proposal. Everyone has a copy, I think. So we can discuss that. The main point, I'm just saying now, is to read through the agenda and see if Prabhupada approves that we're talking about these things, and then..., because these things are so detailed, and we have some proposals in writing. We can discuss them more. Anyway, so one proposal is Gurukula finance. Another proposal is Brahmananda's made some proposals about Africa, specifically manpower to be sent to Africa. Another proposal... another thing is to discuss the BBT, BBT loans, moving of the Press, several points about BBT, lowering of the prices, these things...
Prabhupada: So what is the advantage of moving the Press?
Jayatirtha: That Ramesvara should be here to say.
Prabhupada: Call (?) Ramesvara. If you be..., all GBC agrees, then you do that.
Jayatirtha: All right. So if we have a separate meeting, and Ramesvara presents his proposals nicely, and everyone agrees, then we can...
Prabhupada: You consider, and then you decide.
Jayatirtha: So that's one thing to discuss. Another thing to discuss is Spiritual Sky.
Madhudvisa: Don't you think that there should be some representatives from the Press at that meeting too?
Jayatirtha: Yes, they'll be there.
Prabhupada: Now, the Spiritual Sky... I have heard that you are paying two thousand rupees, er, two thousand dollars, per month to the accountant, and one thousand dollars to Karandhara.
Jayatirtha: Yes, about that.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: Seventeen hundred dollars a month to the accountant, full-time accountant. That is the average price in America for a first-class accountant. Otherwise, we have to hire, get Atreya Rsi to come and do it.
Prabhupada: And Karandhara is taking one thousand dollars?
Jayatirtha: Well, here's the problem, that because it is a business, people must, that work there, have to get regular salary and pay taxes. Otherwise we can get in a lot of trouble. We can get in a lot of trouble. Maybe Bhagavan may know.
Bhagavan: Well, I have the same thing in France. Spiritual Sky is a legal business. That means you have to legally employ people. But I employ the temple people and just take their salary.
Jayatirtha: Yes. That's all right.
Bhagavan: Do you take Karandhara's salary?
Jayatirtha: No, that's a different thing. Anyway, let me finish the point. The point is that legal salary has to be paid, and then taxes have to paid from that. So for example, Karandhara's salary is not really a good example because he doesn't give fifty percent. But one thousand dollars is the salary.
Bhagavan: Minimum? Minimum salary?
Prabhupada: No.
Jayatirtha: That eight hundred, two hundred goes for taxes...
Prabhupada: No our, our... That was the... Formerly, who was managing?
Jayatirtha: Formerly, I was managing.
Prabhupada: So you were also taking one thousand?
Jayatirtha: I was... But that was... But I was... I wasn't taking anything. But that was...
Prabhupada: Then? How...? Why he is taking?
Jayatirtha: Because we were working illegally.
Hamsaduta: The thing is the whole situation has deteriorated into a karmi business, and no one's making any profit on it.
Jayatirtha: Well, now, let's...
Hamsaduta: It's just a headache.
Jayatirtha: That is a... That is an unschooled statement, an uneducated statement. It's not a...
Hamsaduta: No, that's not a fact. Where is the advantage?
Jayatirtha: Anyway, let me finish... That's why I don't want to discuss this in front of Prabhupada, because of argument. Anyway, the next point is that, as far as Karandhara's salary is concerned...
Prabhupada: No, the Spiritual Sky was contemplated that our grhastha bhaktas may be employed...
Hamsaduta: Yeah, but they're not employed anymore.
Jayatirtha: That's not true.
Prabhupada: And the bare necessities should be paid.
Jayatirtha: Right. Well, generally we have about seventeen, eighteen grhasthas employed in Los Angeles, and they get much smaller salary, and they, for the most part, they're giving everything over subsistence to the temple as donation. They take out minimum subsistence...
Prabhupada: But Karandhara is not giving anything.
Jayatirtha: Well, his point is... As you know, he made that unauthorized loan from BBT when he left, for five thousand dollars. And he has to pay it back at three hundred dollars per month. So after he makes...
Prabhupada: Unauthorized loan?
Jayatirtha: When he left last year, he took loan for five thousand dollars, and he is repaying at three hundred dollars per month. So after taxes, he gets eight hundred dollars. Three hundred dollars goes to BBT. That's five hundred. Now, with the balance, he supports his wife and children, and his wife is giving donations for Deities and so on. So he is not actually...
Prabhupada: No, that you discuss whether he is... Otherwise I can give you a very first-class man, but he won't charge anything.
Jayatirtha: Who is that?
Prabhupada: That I'll not disclose. (laughter) You give him simply, his wife and him, a shelter. He's Indian, I can say.
Jayatirtha: Oh.
Prabhupada: And he is qualified man. He can do. Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada...
Jayatirtha: But he's not a devotee.
Atreya Rsi: Karandhara's management isI mean I'm just looking at it from another viewis worth more than two thousand dollars. So if he is getting only one...
Prabhupada: But your management is not worth five thousand dollars?
Atreya Rsi: Mine is worth nothing.
Prabhupada: Then why you are giving free service? Anyone, all of my disciples, they are qualified. Their service is worth more than any thousands of... Yes. So why you are maintaining Karandhara? All of them, they are giving free service. But they are all worthy to take salary, two thousand, three thousand, five thousand...
Atreya Rsi: Karandhara is only, what he's getting is only enough for his maintenance.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Atreya Rsi: We are being maintained.
Prabhupada: No, no. Maintenance... Here, everyone can earn money and maintain him, but here this expense should be sacrifice. The essential is service.
Hamsaduta: It's his service...
Prabhupada: Service, yes.
Hamsaduta: It was started for that reason.
Prabhupada: If we take payment, that is not service. That is business. That is business.
Jayatirtha: It is, no doubt, a fact that Karandhara is not giving his full, is giving his full life as service. That is a fact. It may be taken...
Prabhupada: Yes. Our organization is to give service.
Hamsaduta: And then another point in this connection is that when I was in Los Angeles last time, all the people that worked for Spiritual Sky, they were, they were starting to fall away because of Karandhara's karmic attitude...
Jayatirtha: That's...
Prabhupada: So this point you discuss.
Jayatirtha: (to Hamsaduta:) That problem we'll discuss, and I'll discuss it with you.
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada, there are also two reports we don't have here, and we should read those before... One is Karandhara's report, and one is Gopala Krsna Prabhu's report, who have investigated this.
Jagadisa: He's told us to make his report.
Atreya Rsi: Hm? Well, yes, that we have not heard yet. So we should hear and read the...
Prabhupada: All have contact. (?)
Atreya Rsi: ...and then discuss this point.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is your GBC.
Jayatirtha: All right. So that we'll discuss. The other thing we'll discuss is ISKCON Food Relief. And we'll also discuss the complaints about books in India.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the main...
Jayatirtha: So these things we can discuss.
Prabhupada: ...how these complaints can be stopped.
Atreya Rsi: The pledge. Should I read the pledge? I have written it.
Hamsaduta: What about the situation in Germany?
Jayatirtha: All right, situation in Germany we'll also discuss.
Atreya Rsi: Put the pledge on the agenda, Prabhu.
Jayatirtha: You want to read that pledge?
Atreya Rsi: You want me to read it, Prabhu?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.
Jayatirtha: I think so.
Prabhupada: Everyone may hear.
Atreya Rsi: I... The same pledge, that the Indian gentleman has written, where it says, "Prabhupada, I, Mr. So and So, karmi name, initiated name in parenthesis, date of birth, at present residing at, of certain nationality, do hereby solemnly affirm, declare and state as under as follows: I state I have been elected or nominated a member of Governing Body Commission, under the recommendation of my Guru Maharaja, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, founder and acarya of Krsna Consciousness Movement..."
Rupanuga: Supreme Authority.
Atreya Rsi: Shall I...
Satsvarupa: Yes, Prabhupada wanted it...
Rupanuga: Acarya and supreme authority.
Atreya Rsi: It's down... There as well?
Jayatirtha: There as well.
Rupanuga: Everywhere. Everywhere.
Atreya Rsi: "Acarya and..., of Krsna consciousness movement under the banner of International Society for Krsna Consciousness. I state that I have imposed all my faith, integrity and honesty in my aforesaid Guru Maharaja with the result he is the sole responsible person and supreme authority of my present position and status which I have gained and I am holding in the organization of the International Society for Krsna Consciousness. I, the said Mr. So and So, both names, do hereby swear in the name of Krsna that I will bear true faith and alliance to the constitution, by-laws, rules, regulations and directions which," and this has been added, "which have been given, including four regulative principles..."
Madhudvisa: They should be stated too.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Madhudvisa: The four regulative principles should be stated.
Prabhupada: No, that may not be. We know, everyone.
Madhudvisa: We know it, but does someone else know it?
Prabhupada: Is it necessary to mention?
Rupanuga: It's a legal document also.
Bhagavan: Yeah, it should be mentioned.
Prabhupada: Mentioned? Mention.
Rupanuga: If it was in parentheses, it would be better for a legal document.
Jayatirtha: That's not a legal document.
Rupanuga: It's a legal document. This is a legal document.
Atreya Rsi: "And chanting sixteen rounds very seriously."
Madhudvisa: Daily.
Atreya Rsi: "Daily."
Madhudvisa: At least.
Brahmananda: And free from the offenses.
Hamsaduta: We have to take some...
Jayatirtha: Who's chanting free from the offenses?
Prabhupada: No, no, don't...
Atreya Rsi: "Very seriously" is all I can say.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, do that.
Atreya Rsi: I cannot say "free of offenses." Because...
Prabhupada: "Seriously" means without offense.
Atreya Rsi: ...I am degraded. "Very seriously, or may be given to me from time to time directly, these directions, by my aforesaid Guru Maharaja, or through his books, or..." In other words, direction given, instruction given, directly by him or through his...
Prabhupada: Better directly.
Atreya Rsi: No "His books"?
Prabhupada: No.
Atreya Rsi: Not necessary.
Prabhupada: Because I may give direction according to the time.
Atreya Rsi: "Or" means both.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Atreya Rsi: "Or" can mean... All right. "Or through his commissioners..."(?)
Prabhupada: Direct, direct instruction is important. Just like Krsna. In the books He has given many instructions, but then He says, sarva-dharman parityaja. If one says that "You gave me instruction before like this. How can I give up this?" so that is not important. The direct instruction is important.
Atreya Rsi: "To me from time to time directly by my aforesaid Guru Maharaja, or through his commissioner..."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: "Or through his authorized person or persons, and I shall obey faithfully all such instructions and directions which shall be, which shall be binding on me, and that I will uphold the sovereignty and integrity of my Guru Maharaja, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and the managing body commission and, or, any other body appointed by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada working under the said International Society for Krsna Consciousness. And I shall faithfully discharge the duty upon which I am about to enter or I have already appointed to that effect." Now this is an addition. "I further pledge that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is the only source of authority, represented by his instructions and books, and I shall follow his instructions, I shall follow the instructions of the books..."
Madhudvisa: Only these books.
Atreya Rsi: "Only these books" Rather than "I will not follow any other book."
Prabhupada: No, why you'll put? (laughs) This is...?
Atreya Rsi: It's not...?
Prabhupada: This is required?
Rupanuga: You mean the part about the books, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Rupanuga: You mean the part about the books?
Hamsaduta: It's already said that you're his direct instructions.
Atreya Rsi: This is to protect, like, if somebody chanting sixteen rounds...
Hamsaduta: It's redundant.
Madhudvisa: Well, I thought if someone was chanting sixteen rounds and following the principles and reading someone else's books, like Siddha-svarupa's people...
Hamsaduta: Yeah, but we've just already read one portion where it says that we will follow direct instructions of Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: That's it.
Hamsaduta: So again he's repeating it.
Prabhupada: Instruction, follow that.
Atreya Rsi: So then it's not necessary about this "only" sort part of...(?)
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhudvisa: What if there is no direct instruction?
Prabhupada: Yes. I don't think that part is anymore important.
Atreya Rsi: "I further state that I am holding monies and movable and immovable..."
Prabhupada: No, why he's...? He's not holding money, GBC.
Atreya Rsi: So this I'll take out.
Prabhupada: No, GBC, practically does not hold any money.
Atreya Rsi: No.
Prabhupada: Then why you...?
Hamsaduta: You can say, "Any monies or properties under my direction..."
Jayatirtha: That's what it should say.
Prabhupada: Eh? What is that?
Hamsaduta: Under, under his direction. Any monies or properties under his direction.
Atreya Rsi: That would be a separate oath. That would be a separate thing, Prabhupada.
Hamsaduta: Maybe that should just be left out because if we're going to have some legal document like an umbrella, then that will take care of all those things.
Atreya Rsi: Well, that should be in the pledge, in the agenda.
Prabhupada: No, no, GBC... Does GBC members deal with money?
Hamsaduta: No, he does not personally. He doesn't have anything personal.
Prabhupada: No, no. I mean...
Brahmananda: But he puts his signature.
Atreya Rsi: No, no. As GBC, we do not deal with money. In other words, if you're dealing with money, it's the temple president.
Prabhupada: The GB...
Atreya Rsi: Not as...
Prabhupada: The GBC should see that it is being done properly. Why he should...?
Hamsaduta: But sometimes it...
Prabhupada: ...involve himself in the...
Rupanuga: Well, for example, in New York...
Prabhupada: ...internal management?
Rupanuga: Well, in New York, for example, I just recently signed with Gopi-jana-vallabha Prabhu the papers on the farm. I signed conjointly with him on the farm because the officers had to sign, and we just recently had a thing in New York, ISKCON, Los Angeles, New York.
Prabhupada: No, no, "sign" another thing. That I have signed, many.
Rupanuga: So that's all right.
Prabhupada: The one thing is that GBC is wandering. If the checks are to be signed, then where is the GBC?
Rupanuga: There's no account, no GBC account.
Prabhupada: The... The money matters should be dealt with the president, secretary and the treasurer, three men. Out of three, two should sign. And GBC's business is to see that things are going on, money matters. That's all. GBC is not supposed to deal directly. He has to inspect. That's all.
Atreya Rsi: So I can cross this...
Prabhupada: Just like... But the thing is, if the GBC and the president is the same man, that is not good. That is not good. The president should be separate. So the president, treasurer and secretary, they will deal directly, and GBC should inspect book, account, that it is done very nicely. That's all. You can question, "Why you have done this?" That's nice. Otherwise, in the..., it will be difficult to manage.
Rupanuga: Yes. We don't want to become entangled in that money.
Prabhupada: Ah!
Rupanuga: We don't want to become entangled in that money.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhudvisa: What controls? What controls in the matter of money then?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Madhudvisa: Who has control of the money?
Prabhupada: Control means if there is vigilant, I mean to say, examination, inspection, then there is control of money.
Madhudvisa: Well, let's say someone gives the temple president some money, and he puts in an account with his name and the treasurer's name, and they both conspire and take the money. Then there's no...
Prabhupada: Yes. That you can do also.
Atreya Rsi: Anyway...
Madhudvisa: Yes, but...
Prabhupada: GBC can do also.
Madhudvisa: But isn't the GBC supposed to be more trusted than the temple president?
Prabhupada: Then everyone can do, who has got the...
Bhagavan: The BBT trustees did it.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavan: The BBT trustees also did it. They took unsanctioned loan from the BBT.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, what about in a case like myself. I'm a sannyasi, and I have a traveling sankirtana party. So can I handle that money?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: I'm a sannyasi with a travelling preaching party. So I have no... Because I am personally seeing to the money, tbere's no debt on that party. Is that all right?
Prabhupada: That you decide amongst the GBC. (laughter) Best thing is that don't keep money.
Prabhupada: Anyway, you don't... You spend the necessary expenditure, and balance money, you give whatever you like.
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada is...
Prabhupada: Sannyasi is collecting and spending.
Atreya Rsi: There you have a function of, more or less of a president, as well as the GBC, in that party.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Which is... In that case, it has to have GBC approval.
Prabhupada: So...
Jayatirtha: So we can adjourn for lunch and...
Prabhupada: Yes, you can... Till next we meet again.
Jayatirtha: So the rest of these things we can discuss in...
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, yes.
Jayatirtha: ...separate meeting.
Prabhupada: Yes. You can...
Rupanuga: Jaya. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. (all offer obeisances)
Prabhupada: (aside:) Oh, he's not... He did not come.
Paramahamsa: No, they went and told him to come and he said, "I'm just now coming." (end)
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1975/mar/conversation_with_the_gbc/mayapur/march/27/1975 Previous: Morning Walk -- March 26, 1975, Mayapur Next: Interview with a German Girl and Assorted Devotees -- March 30, 1975, Mayapur
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