Syamasundara: We're discussing this German philosopher, Fichte. Last... We had discussed the whole philosophy then we lost the last half of the tape so I'll just start where we left off. Just to review slightly...

Prabhupada: Then why don't you, whatever you have got, you get it transcribed and send it to Hayagriva Prabhu.

Syamasundara: Well, I'm pretty much going to have to edit this because...

Prabhupada: Then we'll edit. All right.

Syamasundara: Fichte's idea is that the world is a rational unified system which is directed toward a purpose and that the self-consciousness...

Prabhupada: It is opposite to that philosophy. He said there is no purpose.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: He said there is a purpose.

Syamasundara: This man is coming about 1800, 1820. Sartre's contemporary. In those times...

Prabhupada: Before him.

Syamasundara: Much before him, about 150 years ago. He takes as the absolute first principle the self-consciousness or the evil(?), "I am", the awareness that I exist as an absolute a priori first principle.

Prabhupada: That is Vedanta. We are studying what I am. That is Vedanta philosophy, to study what I am. And the answer is given by us, Vaisnava philosophers, that you are eternal servant of God. This is Vedanta. Everyone is searching what I am, we are giving the answer: "You are eternal servant of God." Now let them refute this that he's not servant, he's absolute(?). Our answer is there. Athato brahma jijnasa, to inquire about Brahman, the spirit soul. What is this spirit soul, what I am. What is the supreme. So, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's answer is already there, jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. The real identity of the living entity is that he's eternal servant of Krsna.

Syamasundara: He says that philosophy or the search for truth begins with the self-conscious demand that one should think thyself, think myself.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's nice. That is discussed in Bhagavad-gita that you should meditate actually what I am. You go on analyzing your body, "Am I these hands? No, it is mine. Am I this head? No, it is my head." So naturally, you come to the point, "Then where I am? I am saying everything mine. Aham mameti [SB 5.5.8]. What is that I?" That is replied in the Bhagavad-gita, (indistinct) kaunteya, ksetra (indistinct). This body, I am not body, you study, it is the field which is given to me for acting. Just like if you are given one jurisdiction, some field, so act there, work there. Similarly, this body is given to us by nature as field of working. Therefore, this yogic meditation, this is consciousness, and I am not this body. That is the beginning of knowledge. Before that (indistinct) thinking that he's this body, he is no better than animal. Big animal. Here is the knowledge. When one understands that he is not this body, something beyond this body"I am not this body, this is my body"that is knowledge.

Syamasundara: This Fichte actually comes to that conclusion because he borrows from Kant and develops this idea of the dialectic that there's thesis, the antithesis and it becomes combined in synthesis. He puts forward the idea that the ego, the subjective identity that the thesis has given and opposing that is the antithesis or material nature. Just like my body is the antithesis of my ego, so it is non-ego. So he says ego, non-ego, there's a continuous struggle.

Prabhupada: When I think that I am this body, that is false ego. That is false ego. Because I am not this body. So those who are falsely identifying this body, (indistinct) they're animals. They're (indistinct).

Syamasundara: So he sees that the world is made up of a combination of continuous struggle of dialectic between the opposing elements of ego and non-ego. My subjective identity and the objective world are continually locked in struggle, endlessly, and this is the way things are going on.

Prabhupada: Not endlessly, but if you understand that you are not this body, then this ignorance is ended, immediately. So you cannot say it is endless.

Syamasundara: He says that there is a gradual evolution towards self-realization if one uses his reason.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is gradual process of evolution is from animal kingdom to human life. When one comes to the human form of life then the realization (indistinct) is there.

Syamasundara: So he seeks to combine these two types of reason, Kant set up. There's pure reason and practical reason or moral reason. In other words speculative reason and practical reason or moral reason.

Prabhupada: Practical, practical reason is that if I think I am this body, then where is the difference between dead body and living? Living body means I am in this body, that is living body. As soon as I give up this body, I go and accept another body. Then it is dead body. So this is practical reason, that without the soul this body is a lump of matter. It is very practical. Therefore soul is different from this matter.

Syamasundara: He says that our progress towards this kind of understanding comes about because we unify our speculative reason, our theoretical reason with our practical reason or our moral reason.

Prabhupada: This is practical. Anyone can understand that when the body is, does not contain any more the soul, then it is dead, dead body, lump of matter. So spirit soul is different from the matter. This is practical. If anyone cannot understand, then he's less intelligent. This is practical.

Syamasundara: His idea of ultimate reality is that it is the moral ego or pure will that...

Prabhupada: Then he has to define what is morality.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Everyone says, "It is my morality." Everyone can manufacture (indistinct). Just like, for example in India if somebody talks of homosex (indistinct) immoral, and here it is going on. (indistinct). So what is morality? (indistinct).

Syamasundara: He uses the categorical imperative that Kant set up, the different categories of goodness and badness.

Prabhupada: That means if you are in the modes of goodness, your morality is different from the morality of the man who is in the modes of ignorance.

Syamasundara: But he says that everything should be understood in terms of what it ought to be, that there is an absolute good.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: And every activity should be understood in terms of that absolute good.

Prabhupada: That, that we say liberation. One should be free from the material contamination. That is our... Because under material condition, he is in three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance. So one who is in goodness he does not approve conclusion in ignorance. And one who is in ignorance, he thinks it is better.

Syamasundara: So if one is looking on the objects of the world in terms of what they ought to be...

Prabhupada: Ought to be, how you'll know it? Unless he gets information from the higher authority what is ought to be? You cannot manufacture. If you are in the modes of ignorance, your "ought to be", just like they're saying the animals have no soul and we are saying, "No, you cannot kill animals." So we are in different position. So what is "ought to be", who will dictate? If you dictate yourself, your concept of killing, it "ought to be". And my concept of not killing, is "ought to be". So what is the standard?

Then you have to go to the authority, go for judgement.

Syamasundara: These German philosophers, they generally accept the Christian standard of morality to be what ought to be.

Prabhupada: That's also good, but Christian morality, who is abiding by Christian morality? The Christian morality, in the beginning it is said "Thou shalt not kill," and they're all killing. So it will be very difficult to find out a real Christian who is following the morality. "Thou shalt not covet," and they're doing all this nonsense.

Syamasundara: Any rate, he's more or less investigating just what is the nature of man without going into the goals.

Prabhupada: That we have got. Nature of man, nature of living entity is that he's eternal servant. He is serving. Everyone is serving. Who is a living entity where in this world he can say that "I am not serving, I am absolute, I am nobody's servant"? Everyone is serving. Either he's serving maya or Krsna, that's all. When he is in knowledge, he is serving Krsna and when he's foolish, ignorant, he's serving maya. That's all. But he must serve. Just like a citizen, he must abide by the order of the state. If he abides by the order of the state in an ordinary way, then he's a good citizen. And if he (indistinct), then he will have to be forced to abide by the order of the state (indistinct). But in all cases he must abide by the order (indistinct).

Syamasundara: He also sees things in that way. He sees the unfolding of reality as the fulfillment of duty, that one must always strive for what ought to be, what is fulfillment of his duty.

That, that information we are giving that in reality everyone is servant, but he is under misconception, he's thinking he's master and he's forced to serve maya. This is reality. Just like a outlaw, he is thinking that free from the state law but he's forced to abide by the state law in the kingdom. Similarly my position is I must carry the order. I am inferior. I must carry out the order of the superior. The superior, the supreme superior is Krsna. If I voluntarily become the servant and carry out His order, then it is my normal life. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Otherwise it is abnormal life. I have to serve maya. Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. Maya will kick upon my face and force me to do something, prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27]. So I will be servant of prakrti, material nature. That means I will be servant of my senses. By nature, my senses dictate, "Now you do this," I will be forced to do it. This is my position.

Syamasundara: When you spoke earlier about what the definite idea of what is good, to strive for, if you were to say that "Thou shall not kill" is good, then what if Krsna says "Kill"? Then that doesn't have any meaning, "Thou shall not kill."

Prabhupada: Krsna does not say, "Thou shall not kill." Where Krsna has said, "Thou shall not kill."

Syamasundara: Well, he tells Arjuna...

Prabhupada: Arjuna. Other words(?) is not for you. Why do you say Krsna says to kill?

Syamasundara: No, I'm saying that...

Prabhupada: That is ourKrsna is absolute. He can order anything He likes, but you have to carry out Krsna's order. If Krsna says you to kill, then you can kill. You cannot say that "Krsna has said to Arjuna to kill, therefore I shall kill."

Syamasundara: So what I mean is instead of saying that this is good and that is bad, all you can say really is what is good is what Krsna says.

Prabhupada: That's it.

Syamasundara: Krsna's order is what is good.

Prabhupada: That is actually doing. Actually in our experience also, just like a soldier, he kills by the order, superior order of the state. He is given gold medal. And if the same man, when he comes home, if he kills, he is hanged. Why? Because you can kill under superior order, not whimsically. Generally the order is not to kill, but if he says now kill, you can... that is order, that you have to take. And if you say at that time, "Sir, you told me not to kill," that is (indistinct). General order and specific order. So Krsna says, amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam [Bg. 13.8]. He is giving the process of knowledge, amanitvam adambhitvam, not to be proud, ahimsa, nonviolence. These are there, eighteen qualities for understanding spiritual values. So it is general. Now for particular purposes if Krsna says, "Yes, you must kill," you must abide by that order. That is Krsna consciousness.

Syamasundara: So the standard of what ought to be is that one should fulfill one's duty to Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is good, that is moral, real morality.

Syamasundara: So Krsna uses the same terminology that one should fulfill his duty and if this is the what ought to be.

Prabhupada: Duty means superior order. That is duty. You cannot manufacture your duty.

Syamasundara: His idea is a little impersonal because he says that we discern what ought to be from the forces of nature around you, reality unfolding.

Prabhupada: Then he abides by the forces of nature. That is nature is superior. He does not know beyond nature there is another superior being, that is God. That is his lack of knowledge. That is the difficulty. If you are not perfect, where is that philosopher?

Syamasundara: He sees an intelligence acting in nature.

Prabhupada: Anyway he accepts the superiority of nature, superior position of nature. He accepts it. So but beyond the nature there is a... the Supreme Personality Godhead. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. Under My direction nature works. So he has no vision to see the background of nature.

Syamasundara: They term nature as the unfolding of events, as a thing in itself. They don't understand that beyond that is the controller.

Prabhupada: That is lack of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. So these persons with poor fund of knowledge, they should not take the position of a philosopher. This is misguided, misleading. That is going on. Mental concoction, speculating, without any authority.

Syamasundara: This idea of Fichte means duty...

Prabhupada: And what is the duty? Unless there is superior order, you ask me to do something, then where is your duty?

Syamasundara: Well, to do our duty is to do what ought to be.

Prabhupada: Who has prescribed that this is ought to be?

Syamasundara: Well, the world order prescribes what ought to be.

Prabhupada: World order, what is that world order? Is it blind?

Syamasundara: Harmony, whatever causes harmony...

Prabhupada: What is harmony, who will define? You say this is harmony, I say this is harmony. Therefore our philosophy is perfect. We are taking our duty from the Supreme. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], that is authority, only to surrender to Krsna and abide by His order.

Syamasundara: Actually his philosophy has that loophole, that there's no

Prabhupada: Every philosophy will be loophole. Everybody, that we shall find out, others cannot find out, what is that loophole.

Syamasundara: Because of this, the German state was able to step in and say, "Your duty is to follow us."

Prabhupada: Who are you? The question is, "Who are you?"

Syamasundara: I am Hitler. I control the...

Prabhupada: That is "Might is right." But Hitler was finished now. That anyone can say, the tiger can also say. "Might is right. I am powerful, you must (indistinct)."

Syamasundara: He says that philosophy must begin with the assumption that being is nothing but that duty is absolutely everything.

Prabhupada: That is nonsense. Without being how you can do your duty?

Syamasundara: That being, being doesn't strive for what is, being is always striving for what ought to be. He always has a sense of duty. There should be something other than this that I must...

Prabhupada: That Supreme Being, He can be (indistinct) up to. You, you cannot do such. You commit mistake. Therefore you do not know what is ought to be or not to be.

Syamasundara: Just like this propensity is there in men not simply to be satisfied with what is but always to strive for something improving, what ought to be.

Prabhupada: So we, we give that ultimate ought to be that you will become surrendered soul to Krsna. That is ultimate ought to be.

Syamasundara: And he says that everything should be seen in relation to that what ought to be (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Yes, that is our philosophy. If it is approved and Rupa Gosvami says, anukulyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], our ought to be is what is Krsna approves or His representative approves. That is ought to be. Our standard. Otherwise it is not, not ought to be. Therefore we accept our guidance (indistint). Tad vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore Vedas say that one must approach a bona fide spiritual master, in order to be fully in knowledge. Acaryavan puruso veda. These are Vedic injunctions. One who has accepted a bona fide spiritual master, he knows everything. Acaryavan puruso veda. Veda means in knowledge. So acaryavan, one who has accepted acarya. Therefore our principle is to follow the acarya. In Bhagavad-gita also it is said, acarya upasanam, one must worship acarya, to go to the right knowledge. So that is our philosophy.

Syamasundara: In his epistemology or his study of knowledge he said that events are not made necessary by causes, but that everything is motivated by its own purpose. In other words if I drop this...

Prabhupada: That means there is no chance.

Syamasundara: No chance.

Prabhupada: Yes. There is no question of chance.

Syamasundara: If I drop this and there is a reaction, a noise, it is not because this caused the noise but that each thing is motivated by its own purpose.

Prabhupada: But there is already the law, if he falls down there will be noise(?). The thing is already there, but it becomes manifested under certain circumstances, that's all.

Syamasundara: But his idea is that dropping of this does not cause it to be necessary that there is noise, but that because the world purpose is unfolding...

Prabhupada: Where is that... Causeless means... There are two kinds of causes, efficient(?) cause and (indistinct) So it may be (indistinct) cause where there are many remote causes. But ultimate cause is Krsna. Sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1].

Syamasundara: That's his idea. He's looking at the ultimate cause, there is a motivation for everything. It's not accidental, that nothing is, no event is...

Prabhupada: That we say, there is no such thing as accident.

Syamasundara: In other words if I perform some act with the expectation that something will result, it's not necessary that that act, that will result. There's no necessity for that.

Prabhupada: That is our philosophy, that let Krsna sanction. There cannot be (indistinct).

Syamasundara: There's no necessity...

Prabhupada: I may try to do something with my expert knowledge but still if it is not sanctioned by Krsna, it will not (indistinct).

Syamasundara: There's no necessity by cause.

Prabhupada: Ultimate cause is He, daivi. That is (indistinct) in the Bhagavad..., five causes. So out of five causes, the daivi is providence. Providential cause is primary.

Syamasundara: More than the others.

Prabhupada: Others is place, the worker, the means.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Syamasundara: In Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Yes. You may be very expert but the ultimate will be daivi cause is not in favor, it will not (indistinct). Here example is just like you (indistinct) your service, suffering, sick, and you are employing first-class doctor, first-class medical, first-class attendant there is no guarantee that you (indistinct). Then where is the cause? What is the cause? From the scientific world you can say that my (indistinct) I have appointed first-class physician, first-class medicine, first-class, everything, but my son died. Then where is the power?

Syamasundara: Whatever caused this person's death is the ultimate cause.

Prabhupada: Therefore the ultimate cause is Krsna. If Krsna does not sanction your so-called first-class medicine, physician, place, and everything will be spoiled. And if he sanctions, even you don't appoint any physician, he will (indistinct). Rakhe krsna mareke mare krsna rakheke. If Krsna kills nobody can save him, and if Krsna saves, nobody can kill. Just like Ravana, Hiranyakasipu. They made plans that they'll never die, but Krsna killed them. No condition will be (indistinct). That is our philosophy.

Syamasundara: That's it. He says here, of all things the ego is uncaused, the spontaneous self-consciousness...

Prabhupada: Yes. Because I am living force, the ego must be there. I am. And that I am may be misplaced: "I am this body or this mind." Real I am, I am servant of Krsna, that is real I am.

Syamasundara: So the I am is not caused by anything.

Prabhupada: No, I am is eternal, Krsna is eternal, and I (am) also eternal.

Syamasundara: So he says that the noncaused ego posits the nonego, or it gives them meaning, existence. It gives...

Prabhupada: That is our philosophy, nonego means although I have got my identification, I am, still I have sacrificed everything for Krsna. If Krsna says "You do this," I don't say, "I will not do." I don't impose my will. I sacrifice my individuality. Krsna says, I must do. Therefore my ego is not there.

Syamasundara: He uses the same example of Barthe(?) that essais persice(?) means that this exists because I perceive it, that all these non-ego objects are...

Prabhupada: No, that we don't agree. It exists independent from our perception.

Syamasundara: But it must be perceived by someone to exist.

Prabhupada: That is different (indictinct) the one who has manufactured it (indistinct). So similarly, God is in (indistinct) of everything, I may not. That is described in the Bhagavata, anvayad itaratas ca, anvayad (indistinct) sa abhijnah. He is not (indistinct). Nothing can be concealed from the vision of God.

Syamasundara: So to be is to be perceived but because God perceives it, it exists.

Prabhupada: Without God nothing can exist.

Syamasundara: So he says that we come into this world and these objects are here...

Prabhupada: Janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah svarat [SB 1.1.1]. (indistinct). He is the originator of everything, anvayad itaratas ca arthesu, indirectly, directly, whatever there are, He knows everything. I do not know who has manufactured this, I see only but I do not know (indistinct).

Syamasundara: He says we come into this world and we posit or we bring into existence the material objects, non-ego objects but the duty of the practical reason to guide these objects properly, to utilize them according to the practical will.

Prabhupada: Then you require the shelter of Vedas. He will give you direction how to live. You have come in this material world for fulfilling your material desires therefore the Vedas give you direction that you try to fulfill your desires in this way, so that one day you may come to your original.

Syamasundara: He says that all of nature as we see it is only illusory sense material reflecting the ongoing moral necessity of reality of the universe.

Prabhupada: That is our philosophy. Mirage, sometimes mirage, if you see in front of the water in the desert. Actually there is no water in the desert, but you see under illusion. But you know, you are human being, you know that there is no water, you don't go after it. But the animal will go after it and he'll lose his life because (indistinct). He wants to take that water, and the water also goes ahead. In this way when he's too thirsty in the midst of desert he becomes dead. So that is the difference between man and animal. So the human consciousness, when it is developed, you come to Krsna consciousness, then you become detached with this material mirage. He does not run after the false water. That is Krsna consciousness. Others may go after the false water. That is called maya, or illusion.

Syamasundara: His idea is that by observing the material energy that we can get an idea of what is the real duty of the universe. You can perceive it in the ongoing fluctuations of material nature, the duty or reality of the universe.

Prabhupada: That is not possible. If he is ignorant, how he can understand? There must be direction, guidance.

Syamasundara: He says that the pure speculative reasoning...

Prabhupada: No, that is (indistinct).

Syamasundara: But this pure speculative reason must be unified with practical reason also.

Prabhupada: Yes. But practical means he will require guidance. (laughter)

Syamasundara: He says the institutions such as laws can participate in this unfolding of the reason of the universe, duty of the universe for instance by controlling conflicts between personalities and so on. Law, the laws of the state, the laws of (indistinct) can participate in the unfolding of the universe, the purpose of the universe.

Prabhupada: Yes. We accept that personality may be (indistinct), not that we pick up any man from the street and we accept guru. That will not (indistinct). Srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12], one who has heard properly from his spiritual master and as a result of such hearing he is perfectly in God consciousness (indistinct).

Syamasundara: How does this fit in with what I was just saying about institutions such as laws, things like that. They can participate in the purpose of the universe, in bringing out the purpose of the universe. I make a law that you shall not kill, does that participate...

Prabhupada: No, you cannot make law. Law can be made by God. You have to abide by the law. You cannot (indistinct), you are imperfect, how you can make law? Your law will be imperfect.

Syamasundara: The state cannot make laws to (indistinct)

Prabhupada: State is (indistinct) because we have no other experience beyond the state. But the state also, according to Vedic civilization, state means he must be king. King must be representative of God. So king is therefore called naradeva. That we have discussed in the matter of Prthu Maharaja. So king is supposed to be representative of God and he has to execute his royal authority by direction of God. The brahmanas and the sages, they give him direction. These things are being very thoroughly discussed when Prthu Maharaja in the Fourth Canto. That is civilization.

Syamasundara: He appreciates that. He says that the institutions of civilization can help bring out the purpose of the universe.

Prabhupada: Purpose of the universe is already there, but you have to know it through proper channels. But if you speculate then you will be misled. That's all. They want to speculate, that is their defect.

Syamasundara: He says that the world, he calls it the stuff of duty, the world is made up of the stuff of duty.

Syamasundara: He sees that everything in the world, all nonego objects, all the objects of the world are seeking to realize themselves. Everything is seeking to realize itself.

Prabhupada: Yes, seeking, therefore if you take advantage of a perfect person, then that seeking will be (indistinct) very soon understand. Otherwise he'll hover in the oblivion. That's all. Our process is we are seeking but we are going to the Absolute Person, Krsna, and you are taking the knowledge, immediately. That saves our time. If you are seeking, considering your (indistinct) very great scholar, research scholar, then you are misled. Our process is very nice. Therefore tad vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], the injunction is you must approach a bona fide spiritual master to make a short cut of the searching.

Syamasundara: Because everything is seeking to realize itself, that that means there is a moral order to...

Prabhupada: Certainly.

Syamasundara: So that each individual must act according to his duty and his conscience in this world.

Prabhupada: No. Conscience, an entity is Krsna conscience, it is useless.

Syamasundara: Conscience.

Prabhupada: Conscience, yes. A thief, he also prepares his conscience. When he goes to steal he says, "I must, because I have to maintain my family. I do not know any other business, I must." This is his conscience. The other conscious is, "No, no, no I cannot steal. It is sin." So where is the conscience? Conscience is not standard. You make your, manufacture your own conscience. Therefore you have to take advice from Krsna conscience. That is real conscience. Whether it is (indistinct) with Krsna conscience, that is (indistinct). Otherwise he created own conscience.

Syamasundara: It is that the supreme principle of world order is freedom.

Prabhupada: Yes, freedom. Our present condition is not freedom. We are completely under the laws, te 'pi svatantra rudhani vardhya (?). They are tied up by the ropes of material nature, hands and legs, and still they are thinking, "I am free." That is illusion. Nobody is free. Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. We are seeking freedom but nobody is free. Nobody is free. Prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27], they are pulled by the ear, "Do this." Prakrteh. You have to do this.

Syamasundara: He says that the free will, which creates itself or realizes itself is the truest of all realities.

Prabhupada: Yes. So if by free will if you choose to surrender to Krsna they you'll get your real free will, freedom. Otherwise you are under the clutches of maya. Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass the stringent laws of material nature, that is not...

Syamasundara: He says, contrary to Kant, he says that the practical reason is primary, is the first thing, that what is practical is superior to what is...

Prabhupada: Practical, this means, suppose I want to do something, I do not know, then I go and ask a superior person who knows it. Just like when you drive your car, you are going somewhere, so you take the direction from the signpost, this way go, this point here, this village. Similarly, for practical purpose you have to approach a person who knows. That is practical. And if you think that I shall do it myself, without consulting anyone, that is not practical, that is theoretical. You will be misled. At least we are prone to be misled.

Syamasundara: He says that the reason is subordinate to the will.

Prabhupada: Yes, thinking, feeling, willing, so willing, I want to do something, I apply my reason, that is intelligence. If we do it intelligently then it is good, and if I do it foolishly then it is bad. Will is there.

Syamasundara: Will is (indistinct) will is primary reason.

Prabhupada: No. After reasoning, then you will. After reasoning.

Syamasundara: First reasoning, then willing. He says the opposite. He says that reason is subordinate to will.

Prabhupada: That can be also.

Syamasundara: He sees the will as practical, practical reason...

Prabhupada: This thinking, feeling, willing, they are all taken together as reasoning. What do you think? What is the psychology? Hayagriva(?) Prabhu? What is there? Thinking, feeling, willing, do you think that you shall be a rich man, you think. Then you make your process how you will become a rich man, then work will (indistinct). Or you will, thinking, feeling, willing, "Yes, I must be rich man," then how you can in this way, that way. But intelligence is above thinking, feeling, willing. Everyone, a dog also thinks he'll feel, he has no intelligence. He has intelligence (indistinct).

Syamasundara: He says that all reasoning comes about as a result of our desires or our will, whatever we are willing, then we begin to reason.

Prabhupada: That is not willing, that is thinking. That is not willing.

Syamasundara: Rationalizing.

Prabhupada: Yes, thinking. I am thinking to become like this. If we generally say like that, "I am thinking." Is it not?

Syamasundara: I am thinking to go somewhere.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, I am thinking. So if there is any difference between thinking, feeling and willing then thinking first.

Syamasundara: Will, willing something is more like desiring something, isn't it?

Prabhupada: That desiring begins from thinking.

Syamasundara: Contemplating the objects of the senses one (indistinct). He says that if one combines rational thought with his will then this will help him towards self-realization.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Syamasundara: If he combines rational thought with willing...

Prabhupada: So wherefrom the rational thought comes?

Syamasundara: That is an a priori fact, that I think therefore I am.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: But we cannot..., pure thought process, I cannot do anything more than think myself. I can think that I think therefore I am.

Prabhupada: You can think, but if you are helped by somebody else who knows the way, then it becomes easier. You are thinking of driving a car. If somebody expert... (break) ...that is practical. Yes.

Syamasundara: He says that it is very difficult because the nonego objects are always trying to lead us astray.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore you have to take advantage of an experienced man who knows things. He does not accept any superior.

Syamasundara: He says that the moral goal, the moral reality of (indistinct) is the ultimate in superiority...

Prabhupada: That morality we have already discussed, what is the morality. You can create your own morality, I can create my own morality. What is actual morality?

Syamasundara: Maybe that's a good place to end. (end)