Prabhupada: ...not dangerously atheistic. Atheism they have spread. "There is no Godscience." [break]

Brahmananda: ...possible to be a scientist and also be God conscious. Why not use science...

Prabhupada: That is real scientist. These are false scientists.

Actually the Supreme Lord is the source of everything. So if one is actually scientist, by his scientific explanation he will point out, "Here is the cause of all causes." By scientific knowledge he will point out that God is the origin of everything. Then his scientific study is perfect. But these rascals, they are doing the opposite, that "There is no need of God. Science is everything," although it is imperfect. That is their fault. Therefore they are rogues. They cannot prove; still, they will insist, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying," like that, and misleading people. General people, they are rascal and fools. If you mislead them, they will be misled. Sudra, mudhas. They are to be educated. Instead of educating them, they are making them more and more fools and rascals. [break] There is utility, but they have no utility. There is some service; they carry some passengers. They are carried nowhere. Simply they mislead. [break]

Cyavana: ...lization, they feel that they need science. They've become dependent upon science. They feel that without science they cannot live.

Prabhupada: Why?

Cyavana: The scientists have made them dependent.

Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. These rascals are fools. Therefore they have become dependent. Why science? What for? That is not... Science is required, vijnana. That is nice. But they are not scientists.

Cyavana: We ask them if they need eternal life. They say "No, we don't need that. We need comforts."

Prabhupada: They... We are eternal.

Cyavana: That "We need our daily bread," like that.

Prabhupada: Where is comfort? You are going to die. Where is your comfort? You are going to be diseased. You are going to be old man like me. Every moment there is some trouble. So where is the comfort, rascal? That means misleading. There is no comfort; still, they are promising comfort. This is misleading. Where is comfort? Eh?

Pusta Krsna: There is no comfort.

Prabhupada: Huh? Where is comfort? If you have to die"Oh, I am dying comfortably"what is this nonsense? "I am dying comfortably."

Indian devotee man (1): Like yesterday night, that man. I asked him, (Hindi) So he said that "I am all right." But he was unable to sit on the chair.

Prabhupada: So which way?

Cyavana: To the park, straight.

Prabhupada: Comfort, where is your comfort? Why you have so many medical men if you are comfortable? Why there are so many drugs, medicine, if you are comfortable? This is maya. He is not in comfort; still, he will say that "I am in comfort." This is called maya, illusion.

Brahmananda: So these drugs, even though one may be feeling pain, he can take the drugs and he won't feel pain.

Prabhupada: Yes. He will take injection. It is comfort. Daily he will take injection, and it is comfort. (laughter) Just see the fools and rascals. Mudha. [break] ...met so many medical men, doctors and quack. "Die comfortably." What is the use of this medical man, medicine? What is the use? If your comfort and death is comfortable, then why spend so much money? Die comfortably. Because you cannot check death, then why you are trying to check death? "Let me live some years more. Let me take this medicine." Why? Why this struggle? Die comfortably. Suffer disease comfortably.

Cyavana: They've made so much propaganda that life is meant to enjoy. Everywhere...

Prabhupada: Enjoy, but where is your enjoyment? Come to the practical point. Where is your enjoyment? You are simply suffering. That is their rascaldom. They are suffering; still, they say, "I am enjoying." This is called illusion, maya. Enjoy. That we also say, that we are trying to take you to a certain place, kingdom of God or back..., where you will enjoy. Enjoy... Anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). That enjoy is our aim. But where is your enjoyment here? That is your rascaldom. There is no enjoyment; still, you say, "We shall enjoy."

Cyavana: Their propaganda leads people to think that they can enjoy... That it's possible here.

Prabhupada: They're misleading. That is misleading. We have to check that. That is our Krsna consciousness move..., that... They are not enjoying, and these rascals misleading them that they are enjoying. [break] Enjoyment is our aim alsobut real enjoyment. Ramante yogino 'nante satyanande. Satyananda. Not this ananda, temporary ananda.

Cyavana: Eternal.

Prabhupada: Satyananda-cid-atmani. Yogis, bhakti-yogis, they also want ananda, but not this false ananda, satyananda-cid-atmani, iti... Therefore they call Rama. Rama means ramana, enjoyment. Iti rama-padenasau param brahmabhidhiyate [Cc. Madhya 9.29]. They do not know what is satyananda. They do not understand, as soon as we accept this material body, it is misery, simply misery. The body is constructed within the womb of the mother in a miserable condition. These rascals, they do not understand. In a packed-up way, head down, leg up. And it is enjoyment. The body is created in this troublesome, from miserable condition; still, they say, "enjoyment." This is foolishness. This is called illusion.

Brahmananda: Sigmund Freud, his philosophy is that that position in the womb was one of great security, and we all want to go back to that position.

Prabhupada: Where is security? The mother is killing them, abortion. Where is security? The mother, under whose abdomen I have taken shelter, she is killing. Where is security?

Indian man (1): One Arya-samaji in Nairobi, he was saying that the body is only made in three months, not in seven months in the abdomen of a mother.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Indian man (1): He said the body only...

Prabhupada: The body is made in one night.

Indian man (1): He said that...

Prabhupada: No, he said. What he is? Body is made, one night, immediately. After sex it becomes emulsified, two secretion, and immediately a pealike form is there. That is body. And that grows.

Pusta Krsna: Although everyone is suffering, however, they think that "Because I am not suffering, everyone else is suffering, and that's okay." They're thinking that the miseries are only for others.

Prabhupada: That is another ignorance. Everyone is dying. He is thinking, "I will not die." This is ignorance. He is running so fast unnecessarily.

Cyavana: He is trying to enjoy that machine.

Prabhupada: Enjoy means another machine will strike, and his enjoyment will stop. There is ship, going fast. Where he will go fast?

Brahmananda: Around the island.

Prabhupada: Just like the dog. He goes fast here and there. "Gow! Gow!" (laughter) It is like that. He is going fast. Doggish mentality. That's all, all dogs and cats, no human being. This civilization means they are creating only dogs and cats, animals, go-kharah, cows and asses. They are... We don't take them as human being. All animals.

Pusta Krsna: Is that because they don't acknowledge that they're suffering?

Prabhupada: So many things. So many things. The first ignorance is that accepting this body as self. Everyone.

Cyavana: The capitalists are so anxious for money that they exploit this tendency of the living entity to enjoy by tempting him. Every year they create some new way to entice him.

Prabhupada: And taxation. And the taxation is divided among them. The tax is meant for public welfare. Instead of public welfare, they divide it amongst themselves and enjoy wine, women, motorcar and flesh. That's all. This is going on. All this income tax-plundering process. This income tax means a plan how to take away everything from the actually earning members of the society. That is income tax. And that is divided amongst administrators. That's all.

Cyavana: Here it is very prominent. The workers in the fields, they are barely making enough to live from day to day. But the planters who live in France, they are taking millions of rupees and living very comfortably.

Prabhupada: Therefore Communism is coming. Go this way?

Cyavana: Is it this way? We can go this way. This way. Or better this way. Now he's coming the other way.

Prabhupada: [break] ...create another danger. Just like airplane. It is comfortable. You can quickly go from one place to another. But as soon as on the plane, immediately your life is at risk. There is no certainty. So this is the way of material world. You create some comfort and you create some greater danger also. Side by side. It cannot be unhampered comfort. That is not possible. You create a motorcarthe same thingyou drive very speedy and you meet accident. Railway, the accident. There was no need. You produce your food locally and produce your milk. Then eat, drink, and live comfortably. Chant Hare Krsna. That is wanted. Make your life successful. Yad uttama-sloka-gunanuvarnanam [SB 1.5.22]. And if you have got education, then describe the glories of the Lord by your scientific and educational qualification. [break] The rain is coming. We can go this way. Yad uttama-sloka-gunanuvarnanam [SB 1.5.22]. [break]

Brahmananda: In the Bible there are so many things that were... about the world that were mistakes, and then, by their scientific knowledge, they found the real fact. Like they say the earth was flat...

Prabhupada: Bible may be wrong, but we are talking generally. So if you are scientist, you can say the right thing. But why should you deny God?

Brahmananda: Well, if the book of God has made mistake, then we don't have any faith...

Prabhupada: Book of God... Then throw it. Kick it out. But I say that you are scientist. How you can deny God? That is our propaganda. The so-called book of God, you throw away. But you are scientist. How can you deny the existence of God? Why you are misleading? Bible misleading, that's all right. Why you are misleading? That is our point.

Cyavana: For so many centuries they took the Bible to be the authority.

Prabhupada: All right, throw it away. You are scientist.

Cyavana: They won't.

Prabhupada: You are a scientist. How you can deny God? Then what kind of scientist you are? The Bible has done wrong. Throw it away. I have no objection. But you are scientist. How you can deny God? And that is our point. Come to this logic, that "How we can deny God?" You are speaking that from chemical combination life is formed. Do it in the laboratory. You cannot do it. Why you are propagating false propaganda? What kind of scientist? Then you are also to be kicked out. If Bible is to be kicked out you are also to be kicked out. Why you are claiming your position? You prove first of all. You combine chemical and produce a life. And you are making false propaganda, so you are to be kicked out. They say, "We shall do in future." And what is the future? Then why you are at present making false propaganda. Wait for the future. Post-dated check. "In future I shall pay." Who will accept this check? Any nonsense will accept.

Brahmananda: But this world is so imperfect...

Prabhupada: The world is not imperfect; you are imperfect rascal. You are rascal; you are imperfect. World is not imperfect.

Brahmananda: Well, they have these cyclones. They come...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Must come because you are to be killed. You are rascal; you are to be killed. Therefore God has created cyclone. You protect yourself if you are scientist, if you have got power.

Cyavana: Because they are anxious for some...

Prabhupada: Because God has created cyclone, therefore He is perfect because you are to be killed, blown away with your all paraphernalia, with your all scientific laboratory and instrument. Go. Go to hell. That is perfection.

Cyavana: They are eager to find a solution. Therefore they are forced to speculate because they have no other way...

Prabhupada: No other way.

Cyavana: They have no other way to learn, unless they will accept Veda, which they won't accept. [break] ...sense gratification. They enjoy making so many theories.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Mano-ratha: "Chariot of mind."

Cyavana: Yes.

Prabhupada: Mano-rathenasati dhavato bahih. By his chariot of the mind he will be driven to this material consciousness. [break] ...spiritual knowledge. Therefore, we see, big, big scientists, they are thinking that combination of matter can produce life. In spite of so much advanced learning, they do not know what is life. They cannot create life; still, they will theorize. How foolish they are. And as soon as you catch his throat, "Produce life." "No, we shall do it in future." Just see.

Pusta Krsna: Sometimes people ask that "If God is so great, then why doesn't He just come and destroy all the evil?"

Prabhupada: Because you have to suffer. You are rascal. You must suffer. Therefore evil must be there.

Brahmananda: Why doesn't He force us to be good?

Prabhupada: Just like if the criminals and thieves say, "Why government has created this prisonhouse?" Is it very good argument? It is for you, rascal. You are criminal. You must suffer. Why it is to be abolished? Otherwise who will suffer? It is for your suffering.

Brahmananda: Why are we evil? Why doesn't God makes us good?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Brahmananda: Why are we evil?

Prabhupada: No, God says that "You become devotee of Me." You do not become. That is your fault. Therefore you must... Just like government does not say that you become criminal. Government says, "You become educated. You become high-court judge, become big officer." Why you become criminal, pickpocket? Does government give any education for becoming pickpocket? Hm? Is there any institution how to steal, how to become pickpocket? (laughter) Then why do you become? Just see. [break] ...eatables you can collect, and I shall show you how to cook in the cooker. One boy. You also see, because nobody will go there.

Pusta Krsna: Harikesa is getting his visa today.

Prabhupada: So we can return. [break] Whole educational system is defective because there is no spiritual education. That has made everything impossible.

Pusta Krsna: One young boy in Johannesburg wanted to join us. He is sixteen years old. So his headmaster said, "What you will do without an education?" They think that this is the greatest ignorance. These are the leaders of education, the headmaster. [break]

Prabhupada: ...spiritual education, he remains an animal. That's all. [break] That is Vedanta-sutra, athato brahma jijnasa. To find out the ultimate goal, that is education. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], "Wherefrom everything is coming," that is education.

Pusta Krsna: But they may say, "That is not practical, because we will starve to death with such knowledge."

Prabhupada: Then... Then you are useless. Because you cannot go to the ultimate point of education, therefore your education is useless.

Pusta Krsna: But then they will ask, "You will come and bring me food?"

Prabhupada: Yes, I will give you food. Food is there. You are not creating food. It is... From the earth it is grown.

Brahmananda: But we have to work very hard; otherwise we won't get money for buying food.

Prabhupada: No. You work a very slight three months in a year and get all food. Food is there; milk is there; land is there. You have to work.

Pusta Krsna: Is it possible to take the mass of crowlike people and give them the higher taste?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: Is it possible to take a mass of crowlike people and elevate them?

Prabhupada: Yes. Human beings, after all, they are. They can be educated. That is the opportunity of human life, that he can be educated. The cats and dogs cannot. [break]

Pusta Krsna: Wake up in the morning and get drunk.

Cyavana: They're watching. [break]

Prabhupada: ...prominent. Red, yellow, and blue.

Indian man (1): Blue.

Cyavana: Violet is there.

Prabhupada: No. The mix, you make a hundred color, but three colors are prominent. Then you mix. You mix the green and yellow..., er, blue and yellow; it become green. You mix the red and yellow; it will become orange. You mix the blue and red; it become violet. Like that. Originally three colors.

Brahmananda: They say from those three colors they can make actually thousands of different colors.

Prabhupada: Therefore three modes of material nature by mixture-8,400,000's of species of life, by different mixture. And when you come to the original color, then the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya... And then you transcend the color; you come to the spiritual life. [break]

Bhargava: ...prison. And then when he gets out of prison he has the memory of his punishment, and that acts as a deterrent to him committing the crime again. But if someone is sinful... [break]

Prabhupada: It is tamo-guna. He knows everything; still, he is forced to act criminally. That is tamo-guna. Everyone knows that he will be punished. He has seen that criminal is punished. Still, he acts criminally. That is called ignorance. Heart is unclean. Therefore our first process is ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], to cleanse the heart.

Pusta Krsna: Papa-buddhi, sinful intelligence.

Prabhupada: To cleanse the heart, beginning of cleanse the heart, that everyone is cats and dogs and so-called human beings... They are under the bodily concept of life. It has to be cleansed, that "You are not this body." If he understands that, then he will understand other things. This is the beginning of knowledge. But where is that knowledge? No school, no college, teaches this thing. So they remain in ignorance. What is this education if he remains in ignorance? [break] ...kinds of advertisement.

Cyavana: That is their propaganda. [break]

Prabhupada: There was no... We don't require all these things because we know others are victims. They pay for it. And they work hard for the money and pay to work. That's all. Our men never touch this Coca-cola and cigarette, but others, they are mad after it.

Brahmananda: They say they have to work so hard to get food, but actually they are working hard for this.

Prabhupada: He'll get food. Food they can grow very easily, but they... Anartha. This is called anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily. Adau sraddh tata sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriy tato 'nartha-nivrtti syat. So anartha-nivrtti civilization, not anartha increasing. Civilization means anartha-nivrtti syat because we are complicated by the anarthas, unwanted things. [break] ...this way there is bulls, horses for transport. But what is the use of these big, big motorbuses and acquire petrol, machine, factory, so many things? But nature's way there is already means of transport. The horses are there. The bulls are there. But they will eat them, and they will create these motor big, big buses and then petrol, then fight. (baby birds making sounds.)

Pusta Krsna: They also want to join the sankirtana movement.

Prabhupada: They are dependent on mother, by nature dependent. Similarly, you should be dependent on the original source of emanation. This is nature. Why they are with the mother?

Cyavana: Without the mother they cannot survive.

Prabhupada: No, without, they can survive; still, they are dependent.

Cyavana: They have to be taught how to live by the mother.

Pusta Krsna: They feel protected with the mother. Safe. People sometimes argue that God is for less intelligent, weak persons.

Brahmananda: People who can't protect themselves, for people who cannot protect themselves, then they can have belief...

Prabhupada: Then you can protect from death? Can you?

Brahmananda: But can God protect? Even Jesus Christ, he was killed.

Prabhupada: That's all right. We are faulty. But you are so advanced. Do you protect yourself from death? We are faulty. That is your decision. That we admit. But what is your position? Protect yourself from death. At any moment death can take place. How you'll protect yourself? Therefore we take protection of God. That "God, You can kill me at any moment. You can save me also." Therefore we are intelligent. But you cannot protect from the onslaught of God. We admit God is great, but you do not, although you will not be protected. You cannot protect yourself from birth, death, old age and disease. So what is the meaning of your protection?

Brahmananda: So both the devotee and the nondevotee, they are both in the same position. They both...

Prabhupada: They... And the devotees know that we are under the control of the Supreme, but you do not know. You are cats and dogs, and the dogs do not know, the cats do not know, you do not know. Therefore you are no better than the cats and dogs. And we know that there is God; there is controller. Therefore we are not cats and dogs. We are equal to the cats and dogs. You do not know; therefore you remain cats and dogs. We know.

Brahmananda: What is the harm of being a cat or a dog?

Prabhupada: That is later on. First of all you do not know; we know. That is the difference. If somebody knows there is government, he is better than the outlaws who don't, doesn't care for the government. He is better position, a good citizen. Who accepts that there is government is good citizen. And one who doesn't care for the government, does whimsically everything, he becomes criminal. And then he is punished. That is the difference.

Brahmananda: So if we all became devotees there would be no punishment.

Prabhupada: No. He'll be protected. Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66].

Pusta Krsna: You've given the example that the rat in the mouth of the cat and the kitten in the mouth of the cat is two different things. [break]

Prabhupada: ...side.

Cyavana: From the hills, from these mountains. There are lakes and reservoirs and it comes down. There's a lot of rainfall on certain parts of the island all year.

Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, you were speaking of anarthas and one of the lesser age boys was wondering... He's asking why we shouldn't take tea.

Prabhupada: Because intoxication. You become addicted. You are asking because you cannot give up tea. Therefore you are asking. Therefore it should be given up. You become servant of tea. Otherwise there is no question of asking. His asking means you want to drink. That means he has become servant of tea. Our original positionwe are servant of God. So we are going to be servant of God. So if we remain servant of this material world, we cannot become servant of God. [break] ...unnecessary are advertised and people become victimized.

Indian: We are putting our posters here all round and they down immediately. Simply they want advertisement of this. [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...because they are envious. When they advertise all kinds of nonsense they don't mind getting cheated. But something nice, they are envious of it.

Prabhupada: Accha bole tomare lagdha, suta jagat murare.(?) You give me that chewra and milk and banana, nothing else. [break] ...and so much useless labor for growing tea, that will be stopped. You can grow food. [break] You drink tea, you'll require sugar. Then unnecessarily producing so much sugarcane. And the by-product of sugarcane, molasses, you'll have to utilize. Then produce wine, liquor. One after another.

Indian man (3): But our country depends upon sugar.

Prabhupada: No, that is mistake. Your country, you can produce your own food. That's all. Why you should depend? You produce food grains. You produce milk. Then your all necessities is supplied. Why should you produce unnecessarily?

Brahmananda: Here they use powdered milk because they have no cows.

Prabhupada: Just see. And here even by this sugarcane, what is called? Upper part? This part?

Indian man (1): We call it ag.(?)

Prabhupada: Ag, yes. You can maintain thousand of cows.

Indian man (1): But that's actually best food, you know. In Punjab they use that. They store it for a year.

Prabhupada: But you do not know how to be happy.

Indian man (1): Even this land, here they are producing sugarcane. So that is strong for wheat. They can grow plenty of wheat.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Everything can be grown.

Cyavana: If sugarcane will grow, anything will grow. It's very fertile.

Indian man (1): Because they don't want to do anything, they simply plant the sugarcane and then they want rest for few months, simply getting money and taking and drinking.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (1): No work. [break]

Prabhupada: ...getting rice, wheat from outside, they can charge any price because the price of grain is increasing.

Indian man (1): Any time, they can stop it.

Prabhupada: You can stop it. (end)